Why Can't Men Believe what the Scriptures Say?

[firehill]

Did they take women prisoner's of war back then?

Paul himself did and he murdered them before his calling.

Actually they didn't. There's another example of using cultural perspective to support Scripture, not to discount or combat it.

Paul didn't murder a single soul. His commission was to bind up believers and carry them away for trial.

It would have been atypical in either Roman or Jewish culture to take women away as prisoners.

'In his early career, according to both the Acts and his own letters, Paul was a zealous persecutor of Christians. Some scholars now believe he was part of a radical and sometimes violent faction of first-century Judaism known as the Shammaite Pharisees. The Shammaites, says Wright in What Saint Paul Really Said (1997), were followers of Shammai Ha-zaken, a Jerusalem sage who advocated a strict interpretation of Jewish law.

The meaning of zeal. While followers of his Pharisaic contemporary, Hillel, pursued a "live and let live" approach to political and religious adversaries, says Wright, the Shammaites believed the Torah "demanded that Israel be free from the Gentile yoke" even if by violent means. Thus, while for modern Christians, zeal is "something you do on your knees, or in evangelism, or in works of charity," says Wright, "for the first-century [shammaites] 'zeal' was something you did with a knife." It was in that spirit of "holy war" that Saul of Tarsus pursued the Christian heretics

[firehill]

After reading all 14 pages of this thread, I have a couple of opinions to add.

Apostle means -sent one (missionary)

The disciples were called disciples (students)WHILE they were being taught by Jesus .

When Jesus left, they were called apostles because Jesus sent them out to proclaim His word.

Men and women were jailed seperately, so Junias was a man since he was in jail with Paul.

Scripture tells us that Christ is the head of the Church, man is head of the woman.

Woman cant be held in authority over a man so women preachers is a no no.

bibleb.com

In 1 Corinthians 11:3 Paul says, "The head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. " That verse teaches that women are to be in submission to men in the sense that they are not to usurp the role of leadership in the church, which belongs to qualified men only.

a) The source of subjection

No one argues that the head of every man is Christ. There is no Christians' Liberation movement demanding equality with Christ! Also, everyone understands that God the Father is the head of Christ. Philippians 2:5-8 teaches that Christ took upon Himself the form of a servant during His Incarnation. Since Christ is the head of the man, and the Father is the head of Christ, why do we debate about whether the man is the head of the woman?

Because there is a total misinterpretation of the word used for "head"! The word for "head" means, "source" or "origin" and best describes the relationship between God and Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ and the Church. God is the source of Christ. Christ is the source of the Church, and man (Adam) is the source of woman (Eve). This proper interpretation takes it out of the realm of debate and into the realm of TRUTH.

Yes, and in Ephesians 5 it means 'source of unity'! Can anyone provide a related word study of kephale which can shed some light on the debate over the meaning of the word, kephale ('head')? Or must I?

[Floatingaxe]

Be my guest, firehill! You are the authority on kephale here in Worthy!

Oops! Did I say authority?

[firehill]

Because there is a total misinterpretation of the word used for "head"! The word for "head" means, "source" or "origin" and best describes the relationship between God and Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ and the Church. God is the source of Christ. Christ is the source of the Church, and man (Adam) is the source of woman (Eve). This proper interpretation takes it out of the realm of debate and into the realm of TRUTH.

This is wrong because for starters, God is not the source of Christ. That implies that Jesus had a beginning, and was not eternally existent with the Father. Jesus as God, has no source, therefore, cannot be applied in comparison to man woman. Furthermore, to render the word "source" is inconsistent with the context. There may be other contexts where the word is used as "source" but that is not what Paul has in view here.

She doesn't mean 'source' in that sense ofcourse but with regards to the incarnation, God was the source! The Holy Spirit overcame the virgin Mary.

[firehill]

Be my guest, firehill! You are the authority on kephale here in Worthy!

Oops! Did I say authority?

Related words of the Greek kephale:

Example: NT writers used arche to say 'ruler' or 'leader' and a related word is archon translated: 'chief', 'ruler', 'prince' etc.

1. Strong's #607 apokephalizo

'to decapitate:behead'

Mark 6:16

HCSB: When Herod heard of it, he said, "John, the one I beheaded, has been raised!"

The Message: 16But Herod wouldn't budge: "It's John, sure enough. I cut off his head, and now he's back, alive."

CEV: 16But when Herod heard about Jesus, he said, "This must be John! I had his head cut off, and now he has come back to life."

2. Strong's #346 anakephalaiomai

'to sum up:--briefly comprehend, gather together in one'

Ephesians 1:9-10

NASB: 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

RSV: 9For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ

10as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

KJV: 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

ESV: 9making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

CEV: 9and by what Christ has done, God has shown us his own mysterious ways. 10Then when the time is right, God will do all that he has planned, and Christ will bring together everything in heaven and on earth.

Romans 13:9

CEV: 9In the Law there are many commands, such as, "Be faithful in marriage. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not want what belongs to others." But all of these are summed up in the command that says, "Love others as much as you love yourself."

3. Strong's #2774 kephalaion

'neuter of a derivative of 2776; a principal thing, i.e. main point; specially, an amount (of money):--sum.'

Acts 22:28

YLT: 28and the chief captain answered, `I, with a great sum, did obtain this citizenship;' but Paul said, `But I have been even born [so].'

ESV: 28The tribune answered, "I bought this citizenship for a large sum." Paul said, "But I am a citizen by birth."

Hebrews 8:1

YLT: 1And the sum concerning the things spoken of [is]: we have such a chief priest, who did sit down at the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens,

KJV: 1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

4. Strong's #2776 kephale

'the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively:--head.'

Colossians 1:17-18

YLT: 17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. 18And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,

CEV: 17God's Son was before all else, and by him everything is held together. 18He is the head of his body, which is the church. He is the very beginning, the first to be raised from death, so that he would be above all others.

Ephesians 1:22-23

AB:22And He has put all things under His feet and has appointed Him the universal and supreme Head of the church [a headship exercised throughout the church], 23Which is His body, the fullness of Him Who fills all in all [for in that body lives the full measure of Him Who makes everything complete, and Who fills everything everywhere with Himself].

WycliffeNT:22 and made all things subject under his feet, and gave him to be head over (translated also 'of') all the church, 23 that is the body of him, and the plenty of him, which is all things in all things fulfilled. (All things are subjected under his feet not 'head.' We should be asking, why? I hope at least some can see the difference between the use of the two metaphors, 'feet' and 'head' here.)

Now, where are these related words used to mean 'authority' like the related words of arche?

From a related word study alone of kephale one can see how its meaning comes across as 'source'.

[mrs]

fire you and FA are kidding I hope right??

Its rather clear throughout Scripture that headship is the depiction of authority not "source".

Your source theory doesnt fit 1 Corinthians 11.

[HAZARD]

In all fairness, this is what I posted on the "Why cant women believe what the Scriptures say? And that a fair question as well.

Guy's lets sit down and as we in Australia say, have a beer, and mull this over. My missus is smarter than me many times all over. I am a retired coal miner, with no great education, but one thing I can garantee you all, she often advises me, teaches me in many and all things not related to mining, or a a mans family responsibilities. This, family responsibilities, was taught to me by my Mom, yes, as woman. And my wife often thankfully preaches to me and teaches me in many things. But one thing she has never done nor will do, and that is to try and take away my authority over our family, our household as a man! HER MAN!, thats me. She can rely on me to defend her with my life, love her, protect her, nurture her, but she relies upon me, as smart as she is, as my teacher, to be her final authority after God, in all things. Will she stop teaching me, to improve me? NEVER!

This is what I posted:

Dear friends in Jesus.

What is being totally forgotten and missunderstood in this debate regarding women teachers and preachers chosen by God is this:

Being a teacher or preacher does not give the teacher or preacher any authority over any man, be this teacher a male of a female, unless they are af corse Jesus Christ Himself, or God the Father and they are not female last time I spoke with either of them in prayer.

If the preacher/teacher is female, and she is married, she will love and respect and obey her husband as he will her. He will love, guide, protect and praise her name and thank God for her for ever more! She may know more than her husband, as my wife and yours often times knows more than we do, but she will not, and does not userp her husbands authority over her or their houshold. Another example;

If, lets say I was a divisional manager of a large corperation, Im a real smart manager, know most everything about the company business, and I was sent to the company organized yearly convention to be updated on the latest stratergy plan, and the speaker was a woman? sent by the corporate director of the said company, to teach me and others on what was required. As my teacher in this matter, would that give her authority over me a divisional manager?? Not on your bippy! And neither would she want authority over me and take on all my responsobilities. All she would be doing is tell me, preach to me, teach me and others of what is required and expected of me by the BOSS! Put God in the bosses position, God sends who He will, and many are women, as Scripture shows in another thread on this board, which some men cannot come to grips with, to teach, preach, as is recorded in Scripture, DOES NOT MAKE THEM IN ANY WAY, IN AUTHORITY OVER MEN! God does not say they are in authority does He? GOD, through the apostles say women are not to be in authority, and neither do they want to be. If they can, and do teach men of the things of God, what is wrong with that, especially if God empowers them to do this?

Please men, we need to get a grip, or many women will hold us accountable when we will be hiding ourselves for what we have done wrong in our lives.

Pleas let God decide who will teach, preach, and who is in authority. Women want men to have the authority and responsibility, and they are happy to obey God as we men should.

In Jesus Name,

Haz.

[Guest shiloh357]

Because there is a total misinterpretation of the word used for "head"! The word for "head" means, "source" or "origin" and best describes the relationship between God and Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ and the Church. God is the source of Christ. Christ is the source of the Church, and man (Adam) is the source of woman (Eve). This proper interpretation takes it out of the realm of debate and into the realm of TRUTH.

This is wrong because for starters, God is not the source of Christ. That implies that Jesus had a beginning, and was not eternally existent with the Father. Jesus as God, has no source, therefore, cannot be applied in comparison to man woman. Furthermore, to render the word "source" is inconsistent with the context. There may be other contexts where the word is used as "source" but that is not what Paul has in view here.

She doesn't mean 'source' in that sense ofcourse but with regards to the incarnation, God was the source! The Holy Spirit overcame the virgin Mary.

Again, source as used here would force a separation between who Jesus is and who God is. Jesus is God, and therfore, you are trying make something out of nothing. God the Father is not the source of Jesus in any context.

[Guest shiloh357]

(All things are subjected under his feet not 'head.' We should be asking, why? I hope at least some can see the difference between the use of the two metaphors, 'feet' and 'head' here.)

Now, where are these related words used to mean 'authority' like the related words of arche?

From a related word study alone of kephale one can see how its meaning comes across as 'source'.

The problem with your study is that it based upon using other words as they are applied in other contexts and issues, and not according to the issue at hand. This is a common mistake made in hermeneutics: People will try to justify their use of one word by how it appears in other passages that speak to different issues and contexts. If you were demonstrating your position using parallel passages that speak to the same issue, that would be different. Furthermore, you are using Strongs which is not meant to be a stand alone resource. Most people, as you have here, completely misuse Strong's dictionary.

Secondly, you completely botched the head/feet metphor used by Paul. The Father has declared that the entire created order is under Jesus' feet which is simply a restatement of Jesus' preeminence over the entire universe. It is nothing more than a simple hebraism denoting Jesus' rank in the universe.

The Bible says that all things are under Jesus feet and that the He is the head of the Church. Notice the constrast. Jesus preeminence in the universe and Headship over the Church are pictured in similar fashion. Just as the entire created order is subordinate to Jesus, likewise He is head of the Church.

In verse 23 this is highlighted by calling the church His body. The body is subordinate to the head. The head determines the actions of the rest of the Body.

[Ovedya]

'In his early career, according to both the Acts and his own letters, Paul was a zealous persecutor of Christians. Some scholars now believe he was part of a radical and sometimes violent faction of first-century Judaism known as the Shammaite Pharisees. The Shammaites, says Wright in What Saint Paul Really Said (1997), were followers of Shammai Ha-zaken, a Jerusalem sage who advocated a strict interpretation of Jewish law.

"Some scholars now believe" That was all I really had to read. "Some scholars also believe that Jesus had a wife and children. "Some scholars also believe that Jesus was a man only, and had no share in the divinity. Scholars believe a lot of things that are completely out of line with the Scriptures. Are you going to choose their "beliefs" over what the Bible says?

In Luke's words, Paul was a persecutor of the Christians. In Paul's own words he was given authority to bind up all who called on the name of the Lord. He arrested them and carried them away to prison; nothing more. Of course in his zeal for the law he persecuted believers, and he no doubt agreed with their executions, but there is absolutely no evidence from the Bible that he killed as much as a single person - ever.

Funny how the topic title is, "Why can't men believe what the Scriptures say?" Clearly you hold other's writings in higher regard than the Bible.