Why Can't Men Believe what the Scriptures Say?

[Guest Biblicist]

Women obviously are called to preach, evangelize, prophesize, administer, teach, and many many other callings within the Church.

I don't know what that has to do with who we appoint as Deacons, Elders and Bishops, and who has authority within a specific congregation though? Scripture is clear on those points.

My denomination split over this issue about forty years ago, and maybe I am sensitive to it as I have seen what has happened to the bunch which did go down that road. The issue is far far broader than ordaining women; it is about scriptural authority, tradition and conforming to the modern world.

I think the issue shows the essential flaw of Protestant churches in the US, a refusal to accept any authority, including authority of scripture, so we all just go do whatever our personal interpretation of what God wants for us takes us. Is it a coincidence that the major mainline Protestant denominations which first started ordaining women some thirty or forty years ago are now apostate on numerous other much much larger issues? I think not.

How very sad that your denomination split over this issue. Pastors who do not know how to rightly divide the truth. Allowing their feelings to lead them instead of the Holy Spirit. Sola Cultura.

[Leonard]

What the OP demonstrated was that women help spread the Gospel by word. We also see in the Scripture that women prophesy. They tell what they have witnessed. What we do NOT find is a single woman proclaiming the Gospel in a church setting, as if they were one of the preaching Elders. NOT ONCE.

So your argument about women 'preachers' is a little hard to maintain in that setting. Now before the froth starts boiling over your lips, let me point out that in my confraternity, WE DO license women to preach!

What you're really looking for I think is womens ordination, which I would oppose. But as in so many cases, 'Willingly would some of you DENY the Word of God, to maintain your tradition."

[Oh Hamburgers!]

First, I am insulted you are assuming it is a men vs women thing. Second, I am insulted that you assume that men are actively ignoring scripture.

Here is the long and the short of it:

(SOME)Women want to be able to preach, and draw upon examples of women being active in the church from the bible to fortify their claims.

(SOME)Men want women to be active in the church, but do not beleive God intented women to be able to preach, and draw upon examples in the bible that show only men should take high positions in the church.

Now PERSONALLY, I think that women should be allowed to have the same positions in the chuch, but BIBLICALLY there are many references that show this is not the case. Women should be respected, women are allowed to spread the news and be active in faith, but women are NOT allowed to hold the higher positions in the church. It's just that simple. To slander either side and accuse them for not believe scripture is a false and petty arguement to make. Both sides ARE quoting scripture, they are just using their agenda to twist the meaning to fortify their side. Men AND women are guilty of this. But really, this shouldn't be a men vs women thing, it should be a scripture thing.

Let's try to keep the personal attacks out of this, even though I understand that this is a heated topic of debate for many. It does no good to let the emotions get the best of us.

[Smalcald]

I think the issue shows the essential flaw of Protestant churches in the US, a refusal to accept any authority, including authority of scripture, so we all just go do whatever our personal interpretation of what God wants for us takes us. Is it a coincidence that the major mainline Protestant denominations which first started ordaining women some thirty or forty years ago are now apostate on numerous other much much larger issues? I think not.

So you are basicly saying that women are somehow intellectually or spiritually inferior to men, and that said inferiority makes them unfit to make doctrinal or scriptural decisions?

This is rich.

No, not at all, how could you get that from what I posted? Women are certainly qualified to be pastors, I mean they run fortune 500 companies I think they can run a little ole congregation of 50 or so people, or 10,000 people, qualification is not the point. The point is adherence to very specific scripture which states that within a Christian congregation women are not to have authority over men. Scripture also clearly lays out the qualifications for positions of leadership, Deacons and elders, which are to be men, keeping the theme of Paul

[Emily~Anne]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing

[IslandRose]

Stick that in your pipes and smoke it, all you (edit) who think you know it all? I have had a gut full of your putting down women preachers. If women these days are called by God to do the work that many men are too timid and sceared to do then God will use women and He does not need anyones approval.

You want to prove a point and you might have a valid arguement but you've lost creditability with this statement. It causes us to find that your post is led by the flesh and not the Spirit.

OH boy, the "cuss word" conundrum. Show me scripture that defines even one "cuss word" please.

How about a few verses that tell exactly the way a born again person should communicate with others?

Ephesians 4

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

But this is totally off the topic. ..... Back on topic now....

[Emily~Anne]

First, I am insulted you are assuming it is a men vs women thing. Second, I am insulted that you assume that men are actively ignoring scripture.

Here is the long and the short of it:

(SOME)Women want to be able to preach, and draw upon examples of women being active in the church from the bible to fortify their claims.

(SOME)Men want women to be active in the church, but do not beleive God intented women to be able to preach, and draw upon examples in the bible that show only men should take high positions in the church.

Now PERSONALLY, I think that women should be allowed to have the same positions in the chuch, but BIBLICALLY there are many references that show this is not the case. Women should be respected, women are allowed to spread the news and be active in faith, but women are NOT allowed to hold the higher positions in the church. It's just that simple. To slander either side and accuse them for not believe scripture is a false and petty arguement to make. Both sides ARE quoting scripture, they are just using their agenda to twist the meaning to fortify their side. Men AND women are guilty of this. But really, this shouldn't be a men vs women thing, it should be a scripture thing.

Let's try to keep the personal attacks out of this, even though I understand that this is a heated topic of debate for many. It does no good to let the emotions get the best of us.

Hamburgers, not bad! <----just so you know, this is not being used in the flirting sense! I am happily married. This is more just being from sister in Christ to brother in Christ. I'll hush now.

[Smalcald]

Women obviously are called to preach, evangelize, prophesize, administer, teach, and many many other callings within the Church.

I don't know what that has to do with who we appoint as Deacons, Elders and Bishops, and who has authority within a specific congregation though? Scripture is clear on those points.

My denomination split over this issue about forty years ago, and maybe I am sensitive to it as I have seen what has happened to the bunch which did go down that road. The issue is far far broader than ordaining women; it is about scriptural authority, tradition and conforming to the modern world.

I think the issue shows the essential flaw of Protestant churches in the US, a refusal to accept any authority, including authority of scripture, so we all just go do whatever our personal interpretation of what God wants for us takes us. Is it a coincidence that the major mainline Protestant denominations which first started ordaining women some thirty or forty years ago are now apostate on numerous other much much larger issues? I think not.

How very sad that your denomination split over this issue. Pastors who do not know how to rightly divide the truth. Allowing their feelings to lead them instead of the Holy Spirit. Sola Cultura.

Well I don't know if it was feelings or not we are a pretty big group. But it WAS doctrine and in retrospect I am actually glad it happened (I am not that old so I was not around to remember!) The reason being is that it removed the issue from my denomination, we don't have to continually argue about it, and we can focus on scripture. What we have seen happen though is the group which did ordain women some forty years ago, now want to ordain gays, they now question the authority of scripture itself, they ended up becoming pro-choice, it's really bizarre. We both claim the same tradition, but come to radically different conclusions on scripture and the faith in general. We cannot even commune with them anymore, it is sad, yet it had to happen.

In this debate I know my personal experiences have colored my thinking, so I do realize that and try to keep that in mind.

[Smalcald]

I said specifically that women could and should hold all of those roles, and of course are totally equal in the eyes of God to men.

But that still does not address the very clear scripture we have dealing with authority and leadership, which are specific roles, but really in the eyes of Christ they are not higher callings than a Prophetess for example.

Maybe that is the problem we are having, pastors are not bosses, they are not "above

[Scarletprayers]

First, I am insulted you are assuming it is a men vs women thing. Second, I am insulted that you assume that men are actively ignoring scripture.

Here is the long and the short of it:

(SOME)Women want to be able to preach, and draw upon examples of women being active in the church from the bible to fortify their claims.

(SOME)Men want women to be active in the church, but do not beleive God intented women to be able to preach, and draw upon examples in the bible that show only men should take high positions in the church.

Now PERSONALLY, I think that women should be allowed to have the same positions in the chuch, but BIBLICALLY there are many references that show this is not the case. Women should be respected, women are allowed to spread the news and be active in faith, but women are NOT allowed to hold the higher positions in the church. It's just that simple. To slander either side and accuse them for not believe scripture is a false and petty arguement to make. Both sides ARE quoting scripture, they are just using their agenda to twist the meaning to fortify their side. Men AND women are guilty of this. But really, this shouldn't be a men vs women thing, it should be a scripture thing.

Let's try to keep the personal attacks out of this, even though I understand that this is a heated topic of debate for many. It does no good to let the emotions get the best of us.

Wait, wait. We know from scripture that women HAVE held the very highest positions in both the Church and the OT system. "Prophet" is the SECOND office in the NT church, and is ABOVE evangelist, pastor, teacher. Got that. And we know from scripture that there have been female prophets (i.e. prophetess) in both the Old and New Testament.

1 Corinthians 12:28

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Gal. 3:26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Wow. same argument as always, I would repeat the answers but why, its not like anybody is going to change their mind. Women have NOT held the highest positions, in the other thread it was proven, going back to the original languages that these could only be held my MEN. But, its always easier to ignore, twist and repeat the same thing over and over and over again rather than face facts.