Why Can't Men Believe what the Scriptures Say?

[Floatingaxe]

[Smalcald]

Waht about the last chapter of proverbs? Which, while perhaps not actually written by a woman, is a woman's dictation? I part of the Bible, however small, was clearly authored by a woman, how can anyone say women can't occupy the same offices as men?

I don't deny any of that, and I don't deny that God may have used women to write part of scripture.

It is not about can or can't, it is not about ability or above or below. It is simply about the very clear direction we have in this one relatively narrow area concerning authority and leadership and the roles of men and women within a Christian congregation.

[Scarletprayers]

Wow. same argument as always, I would repeat the answers but why, its not like anybody is going to change their mind. Women have NOT held the highest positions, in the other thread it was proven, going back to the original languages that these could only be held my MEN. But, its always easier to ignore, twist and repeat the same thing over and over and over again rather than face facts.

*sigh*

So again, you deny Deborah was a prophetess, and that all of Israel went to her for judgement.

You deny the prophetesses in the NT as well. You deny the fact that women taught Barnabas.

Waht about the last chapter of proverbs? Which, while perhaps not actually written by a woman, is a woman's dictation? I part of the Bible, however small, was clearly authored by a woman, how can anyone say women can't occupy the same offices as men?

Gee lets just jump to assumptions, I don't DENY any of the above, what I deny is that women can hold positions of authority over men (in the original language). The Bible states it plainly, for anyone who wants to read it. As for Proverbs, "while perhaps not actually"................................. proves what???

[Press Forward]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing

[firehill]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing

[Floatingaxe]

First, I am insulted you are assuming it is a men vs women thing. Second, I am insulted that you assume that men are actively ignoring scripture.

Here is the long and the short of it:

(SOME)Women want to be able to preach, and draw upon examples of women being active in the church from the bible to fortify their claims.

(SOME)Men want women to be active in the church, but do not beleive God intented women to be able to preach, and draw upon examples in the bible that show only men should take high positions in the church.

Now PERSONALLY, I think that women should be allowed to have the same positions in the chuch, but BIBLICALLY there are many references that show this is not the case. Women should be respected, women are allowed to spread the news and be active in faith, but women are NOT allowed to hold the higher positions in the church. It's just that simple. To slander either side and accuse them for not believe scripture is a false and petty arguement to make. Both sides ARE quoting scripture, they are just using their agenda to twist the meaning to fortify their side. Men AND women are guilty of this. But really, this shouldn't be a men vs women thing, it should be a scripture thing.

Let's try to keep the personal attacks out of this, even though I understand that this is a heated topic of debate for many. It does no good to let the emotions get the best of us.

Wait, wait. We know from scripture that women HAVE held the very highest positions in both the Church and the OT system. "Prophet" is the SECOND office in the NT church, and is ABOVE evangelist, pastor, teacher. Got that. And we know from scripture that there have been female prophets (i.e. prophetess) in both the Old and New Testament.

1 Corinthians 12:28

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Ephesians 4:11

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Gal. 3:26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Amen! We mustn't forget also, that as Jesus had twelve favoured disciples, He also had hundreds of others who would follow after Him and also preached the gospel and were used in healing and casting out demons, etc. Many would have been women, just as in the upper room experience with the Holy Spirit's baptism--out of 120 people, many were women, and they began to preach and teach immediately in other tongues. It continues to this very day.

[MeCajunboy]

Maybe you should ask yourself. . . why can't men, and women, apply Biblical Hermeneutics?

Just to clarify what Biblicist meant to tell the audience of the definition of "hermeneutics" is:

the study of the methodological principles of interpretation (as of the Bible)

So Biblicist, are you saying that , "If a woman feels compelled by God and feels the gift within her from God to "Teach" or "Preach" the word of God, that she must receive "human" methodological principles of interpretation first? Do you knot trust God to decide "who" can interpret HIS word? Tell me, Do you allow the gift of "tongue" translation in your practice? Do you allow it to be spoken/translated by a female? HUM?

Blessings

Cajunboy

[Ovedya]

Scripture states that God calls women to preach. There is as much contraversey regarding the subject, whether God calls women to preach as there is on all other doctrinal issues. Thankfully, as always, the Scriptures clear up this question like they do all others matters if we will but believe the Bible.

In the gospel there were several woman messengers who proclaimed the good news (Matt. 28:1-10; Luke 24:9-11; John 4:28-30; 20:16-18). Is proclaiming the good news preaching?? Well, in churches I have attended over the years, this is what ministers have been doing for many years. "Come to my church on whatever day, and I will give you the good news about Jesus, your salvation, halellua, praise God". I'm gonna tell you all about Him and your salvation, I'm gonna tell you about the Word of God in the Bible." Is this preaching???

If its a man it seem's to be called preaching, and if its a woman, it seems many men are aginst women doing this.

WHY?

There is nothing in Scripture which says women cannot be used by God to further His work on this Earth?

Regarding these end time days, in Acts we have a prediction that God will pour out of His Spirit in the last days "UPON ALL FLESH; and your sons and DAUGHTERS shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; and upon my servants and upon my HANDMAIDENS I will pour out of my Spirit and they will prophesy." Prophesying is explained in 1 Cor. 14:3-4 as "speaking unto MEN to edification and exhortation and comfort." Thats preaching, teaching, praying, in anyones language. and God says He will pour out His Spirit upon men and WOMEN to enable them to do this!

These following passages prove to any unbiased mind that prophesying is for the church which has men and WOMEN members (1 Cor. 12:1-13; 14:1-6, 12, 24-26, 29-33).

In Acts 21:8-9 we read Philip had four daughters that did prophecy or preach in the early church.

In Romans 16 we have Phebe, Priscilla, Mary Junia, Tryphosa, Persis, all female names, women mentioned as laborers in the gospel.

In Phil. 4:2-3 we have Euodias and Syntyche, two women who are emntioned as leaders in the local church at Philippi. They are refered to as "those WOMEN which labored with me in the Gospel."

Paul speakes of the Corinthian women prophesying and praying in church (1 Cor. 11:4; 14:1-5, 23-26).

When paul said for women to "keep silence in the church" he was not speaking of women prophesying or praying, but he referred to asking their husbands certain things at church. He said, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home" and not in the church (1 Cor. 14:34-35). But that they could speak and prophecy and pray in church is clear from 1 Cor. 11:4; 14:3-4, 23-26; and Acts 2:16-21.

Women have been used in all ages by God, Read there Scriptures and some men can disbelieve them if they want, but who realy cares? Its the Scriptures which matter and not what some men think. (Ex. 15:20; Judges 4:4; 2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chron. 34:22; Neh. 6:14; Isa. 8:3; Luke 1:39-56; 2:36). God is soverign and He can use a woman when He pleases and He does not have to ask some mere man whom He should use and whether He should use a women or man. And most women I have heard have made more sense regarding doctrin than most men I have ever heard regarding doctrin or the actual Word of God?

Stick that in your pipes and smoke it, all you (edit) ministers who think you know it all? I have had a gut full of your putting down women preachers. If women these days are called by God to do the work that many men are too timid and sceared to do then God will use women and He does not need anyones approval.

Haz.

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Who says that women can't preach the gospel? Women are not forbidden from preaching the gospel, they are not forbidden to serve in teh Gospel, and they are not forbidden from prophesying in the church.

Woman are forbidden from teaching as authorities in the church, however. The Scripture is explicit and clear on the matter!

Modern Christianity has all but lost the true function of the various functions in the Body of Christ. That is the the real problem as I see it. Today a "preacher" is someone who "pastors" a church. Today a "prophet" is someone who establishes and leads a church locality. Today there are bishops, pastors, elders and deacons all in the same congregation, when the Bible prescribes no such offices together!

The bible on the other hand is simple and straightforward concerning the functions and the offices of the church. There are many functions in the church that operate together for the building up of the Body of Christ. But in terms of leadership there are only three main offices: The apostleship, the eldership, and deacons. Apostles establish and plant churches. Elders (also called overseers in the Bible) lead individual congregations and see to that they are firmly established in the faith by teaching the straight path of the faith. And deacons serve the church in the many practicall affairs; mainly seeing to the spiritual needs of the church. As far as the functions of the church - of which there are many - there is no need for a distinction between the service of a man or a woman. As far as the apostleship and eldership are concerned, since they include authority, teaching and the establishment of doctrinal orthodoxy, only a man is permitted to hold these offices.

Now, it may be that in your particular congregation someone who "preaches" or someone who "prophesys" also teaches church doctrine. But I would suggest to you that in terms of what is clearly shown in the Bible, your congregation does not follow that pattern. It follows another pattern; a pattern, which I would suggest, was created for comfort and convenience.

[Karen C.]

How about lets back up a few verses and address the whole of what Paul was trying to say.

8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman shouldlearn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

This is obviously a gathering experince Paul is referring to.

So men according to vs 8 you should be lifting HOLY hands in prayer.. w/o anger or disputing..

Do I hear any AMENS!!

According to vs 9 there is no need to wear expensive clothes or over do the hair...

how many we have here fall in this catagory???

According to vs 11 the learning of the woman should be done in quietness.. Don't overthrow what is being taught. I guess she was unable to shout out her opinion in the middle of service.. ...

Usurping authority. If I come out from my denominations held positions and teach doctrine contrary to what held as fundamental truths, then I am treading on dangerous ground...

Untill then I am accountable(responsible) to teach what I have been taught by men...

I Just would like each to evaluate the whole of the scripture and take into consideration the cultural context of the times.

These people were your un churched folks. I am sure they were a little heathen and without any manners.. (seen any of those lately??) Trying to get them through the BASIC teachings required some strict guidelines. After the LEARNING process has been accomplished then those who are called move into the area of calling... teachers, pastors, evangelists, prophet...etc.

[Emily~Anne]

What about this?

2 Timothy 3:16

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

???????????????How in the world do you get around that?