Why Can't Men Believe what the Scriptures Say?

[Tubal-Cain]

And the word used in the King James Bible was servant. That means they used the correct word in the text. There is no way anyone can prove that the word should have been translated as deacon.

If that's the case then there is no way you can prove that the word should have been translated as deacon in 1 Timothy 3. The term in 1 Timothy 3 can mean "serve, wait on; care for, see after, provide for; serve as a deacon."

Moreover, other translations disagree with the KJV on Romans 16:1. The NIV contains a footnote stating that "deaconess" is an acceptable translation. The AMP, NLT, and NRSV refer to Phoebe as a deaconess in the text.

[Emily~Anne]

I noticed that those who are in support of women being in authority over men are the poorest behaved on both this thread and another certain very similar thread that got deleted. I think that speaks volumes.

[Ovedya]

According to p. 42 of the dictionary in the Greek New Testament the term used in Romans 16:1 means "servant; helper, minister; deacon; deaconess."

Yeah, thanks. (edited by moderator - no name calling, please)

The very form of the word proves that women can be deacons (deaconesses).

People get so confused because in english so many words are not usually conjugated by gender. Like "Governor" is "Governor" regardless of sex, and "Teacher is teacher" regardless of sex. But you will not find a woman called "Deacon" (diakoneo) because "Deacon" is not proper, she is called the FEMININE of deacon, which is Deaconess (diakonia). When referring to more than one of said "diakonia" or "diakoneo", if it is either all male, or mixed company, then correct form of the word is "diakonos".

Yet there is not a verse in the New Testament in which a deacon is given to establish, affirm or teach the orthodox doctrines of the church.

[Scarletprayers]

I noticed that those who are in support of women being in authority over men are the poorest behaved on both this thread and another certain very similar thread that got deleted. I think that speaks volumes.

Amen

[Tubal-Cain]

Nobody is trying to prove the correct word in 1 Timothy is deacon. That is obvious. It goes without being said. Anyway I can prove it is correct. The Bible is without contradictions. If the scripture in 1 Timothy meant anything other than deacon, it would indeed contradict with the fact that women were servants.

It's only a contradiction if you think both passages are to be applied to all people for all times. It is possible that, in general, Paul had no problems with female deacons like Pheobe, yet, had a problem, for a reason now lost to us, with female deacons in the church addressed in 1 Timothy.

Here is the problem with your whole argument. You are not even trying to defend the qualifications based on the idea they are wrong. You are trying to make the argument the Bible is contradicting itself. It has already been established that one of the qualifications of a deacon is that they be the husband (aner) of one wife, meaning a man. The best anyone on your side of the isle can do is discredit the Bible by making it appear to be contradictory, and then saying, see there, women did these things, so it doesn't matter what 1 Timothy says. It cannot be right. That is ludicrous, and is attacking the credibility of scripture.

All that's been established is that the author of 1 Timothy (who may have used the name Paul as a pseudonym) told a specific church the qualifications needed to be a deacon. It does not change the fact that there is a deaconess mentioned in Romans 16:1.

At this point you need to either reconcile the two passages (as I did earlier) or choose one over the other. If you're going to choose one over the other you'd have to go with Romans which we know was written by Paul as opposed to 1 Timothy which is likely pseudonymous and from a post-Pauline age.

[Arthur Durnan]

Sometimes this sounds like rebellion as emanating from the Roman church, ie, a female "pope," female priests, et al. The exemplary biblical context has our Savior, Jesus Christ, as a Man; His Apostles were men, and bishops (elders) & deacons are seen as men. One does not need to re-invent the wheel to know - re the Garden Fiasco - that the fact that woman was last in creation, and first in sin might indeed have something to do with the biblical order? Could be. Could quite possibly be. The point there is probably not idle. Neither am I due to the fact I have to meet a friend at Starbucks at 3.30 EST. I'll have one for you.

La illaha illa'llah!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Arthur Durnan]

Your attempt to respond tap-dances faster than the eye can see or the ear hear. So our Lord wasn't a Man? Nor His Apostles. Hmm. Maybe your "stage name" does say it all?

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Guest]

Jesus Candle

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:4-5)

Boy Candle - Girl Candle

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

"Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house."

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:14-16)

I noticed that those who are in support of women being in authority over men are the poorest behaved on both this thread and another certain very similar thread that got deleted. I think that speaks volumes.

"So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate." (Revelation 2:15)

Be Blessed

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

"Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted."

"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy."

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God."

"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."

"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." (Matthew 5:3-12)

I wonder how far down the list I'll get?

Oh Yeah!

Done Deal!

Jesus is working on it!

Love, Joe

[gypc]

Stick that in your pipes and smoke it, all you (edit) who think you know it all? I have had a gut full of your putting down women preachers. If women these days are called by God to do the work that many men are too timid and sceared to do then God will use women and He does not need anyones approval.

You want to prove a point and you might have a valid arguement but you've lost creditability with this statement. It causes us to find that your post is led by the flesh and not the Spirit.

OH boy, the "cuss word" conundrum. Show me scripture that defines even one "cuss word" please.

Ok and understand something.........Gal 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control.

This was a slanderous statement towards all ministers who don't agree with HAZARD.........these are the sort of things that people who want to bring discord do..........they are not led by the Spirit, they are led by the flesh. These kind of statements should bring to the body, a red flag. If the person comes on here and repents........you know, they might've just got caught up in the moment..........then we should forgive and forget.........but if there is no repentance they are showing that we should be cautious of them.

[firehill]

As far as the apostleship and eldership are concerned, since they include authority, teaching and the establishment of doctrinal orthodoxy, only a man is permitted to hold these offices.

Only men eh?

Junia was an apostle, Phoebe a deacon, and 1 Timothy and many other passages seem to be speaking of female elders...

The only mention of Junia in the NT:

"Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." (Rom. 16:7)

This single verse does not prove that either Andronicus or Junia were apostles. According to both Greek and English grammer, they were Paul's "kinsmen" (probably Jews) and "fellow prisoners." They are "of note" among the apostles. This simply means that the apostles regard them highly. It does not mean that they are also apostles. It takes a real stretch of the imagination and a lot of verse-twisting to say that paul is calling either of these two apostles.

"commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a deaconess of the church which is in Cenchrea," (Rom. 16:1)

As I stated before, and many times, that Phoebe was a "deaconess" does not make her one who held a position of authority over men, who established and affirmed the proper doctrines of the church. A deacon is a servant, and the Greek word is used continually to indicate this. There is no reason whatever to presume that Phoebe held a position of authority over men.

If Paul believed that only men should be entrusted with his principles, doctrines and teachings then he wouldn't have used a gender neutral term, 'people' in 2 Timothy 2:2.

That's a presumption. How do you know what Paul would or would have not used?

The word used is not gender neutral, by the way. It's a masculine noun according to Strong's

'In Romans 16:7, Paul praises a woman named Junia as "outstanding among the apostles." Despite the modern mistranslation of her name as masculine "Junias" or "Junius," no commentator prior to the 13th century questioned that this apostle was a woman.1 For example, John Chrysostom, whose writings often express misogyny, wrote of Romans 16:7, "O how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!"'

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/wom...y/rissjunia.htm

The fact that the Greek word for 'people' is a masculine noun proves nothing other than that a masculine noun can mean 'people' a gender neutral word!