The Grape Vine and Unconditional Eternal Security

[endure4salvation]

I still don't get what UES is supposed to mean. Eternal security for the believers (OSAS) or eternal security for everyone?

The Bible obviously teaches the security of the believer. Nobody here will deny that the BELIEVER has security from condemnation (Romans 8:1, 38-39, John 10:28....)

What the difference between UES/OSAS and the other position is that we believe that a saved person can still end up in the lake of fire, whereas the others do not. It is not a matter of can we just become lost, but can we have a final rejection of God after our initial salvation experience. That being said........

UES is:

Unconditional Eternal Security.

Those who believe that OSAS/UES is not true will usually say that perseverance and obedience to the Law of Christ is required until the end of ones life for entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

[endure4salvation]

Another study that I think ties into this is the fig tree.

There are times when Jesus talked about the fig and I believe that it is symbolic of Israel.

Jesus went looking for fruit on it and saw none.....he cursed it and said that it would NEVER bear fruit again (Matthew 21:19)

Then Jesus talked about bearing fruit in Luke 13:6-9 and said that the absence of fruit would cause a tree to be cut down.

And we finally have Romans 11 where because of unbelief individual gentiles would be cut out of the brance if one wanders into unbelief........but they could be grafted back in if they repent.

[WayneB]

Well I looked in Strong's concordance and the "lifted up" translation is a predominate meaning for "taken away'........

Thanks. I can't believe that I didn't look it up in Strong's.

Regardless, the debate comes down to two sides of one coin.

On one side, you can translate the greek word airo as "take away" and believe that the fire Jesus mentioned is a consuming fire that will burn the branch/metal.

On the other side, you can translate the word airo as "lift up" and believe that the fire Jesus mentioned is a refiner's fire to rid the branch/metal of all its impurities (sin).

One would never throw a branch/metal that was "lifted up" into a fire designed to "burn" it.

Regardless, the coin is the same. Jesus loves us! If we love Him, we are to obey Him. That is what we should be teaching those that we minister to.

Just to make my position clear though... in this context, I am cofident that airo means to "take away" or "cut off" and the fire is a burning fire. It is hotter than a refiner's fire and its design is to burn, not refine.

God Bless,

Wayne

[WayneB]

Those who believe that OSAS/UES is not true will usually say that perseverance and obedience to the Law of Christ is required until the end of ones life for entrance into the kingdom of heaven

That's how I understand it.

Mathew 24: 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

[Adstar]

I think I will have a go at describing the difference between OSAS and UES

OSAS:

This is the belief that when one truly accepts Jesus as their Lord and savor then one cannot from that day onwards ever loose their eternal salvation.

UES:

while similar to OSAS this one is more aligned with calvinisim. That is it is God who causes ones He chooses to come to accept Jesus as their Lord and savor, That God causes one to believe and causes that belief to continue. The individual has no choice in the matter. Free will is a delusion in calvinisim.

All praise The Ancient of Days

[Adstar]

Actually if memory serves me well UES is calvinisim. it is the "U" in the 5 points of calvinism

T.U.L.I.P

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Hvnly1Rose]

Here is what I got from the Interlinier Bible

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 142 Browse Lexicon

Original Word Word Origin

airo a primary root

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Airo 1:185,28

Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech

ah'-ee-ro Verb

Definition

1 to raise up, elevate, lift up

2 to raise from the ground, take up: stones

3 to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand

4 to draw up: a fish

5 to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

6 to bear away what has been raised, carry off

7 to move from its place

8 to take off or away what is attached to anything

9 to remove

10 to carry off, carry away with one

11 to appropriate what is taken

12 to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take

by force

13 to take and apply to any use

14 to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence

cause to cease

I think that #'s 8, 9 & 14 best suit this verse.

I was looking at the verse a bit closer and I think one very important word that hasn't been focused on is "dries up" (nasv). It seems to me that it would require a lot for you to be dried up as a Christian....I believe that this verse (John 15:6) is telling us that if we choose to turn away from God and not abide in Him then he will pull us off the vine, at which point in order for us to be burned (because a branch is still green when first pulled off a vine) we have to go through a final stage of drying before we can be burned. So Yes we can give up our salvation by turning away from God, but it never tells us at what point is it that we stopped abiding in Him. Is it when we have completely eliminated Him from our everyday thoughts? Or is it when we stop going to church; only pray when it suits our needs and maybe if you're asked to pray for someone else; fill our home with things other than God, and He is seen only a little, but all the while you still have a deep love for Him...could that be seen as the prodigal son?

I guess I am just looking for answers that the Lord hasn't yet revealed to us/me.

[endure4salvation]

Actually if memory serves me well UES is calvinisim. it is the "U" in the 5 points of calvinism

T.U.L.I.P

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

No the P is the Perseverance of the Saints (the Calvinistic version of OSAS/UES)

TULIP is:

T= Total hereditary depravity

U=Unconditional election

L=Limited atonement

I=Irresistible grace

P=Perseverance of the saints

U=what we commonly call predestination (well, the Calvinistic version anyway).

UES/OSAS are one in the same. Perseverance of the saints is similiar, but different in some ways.

[Guest idolsmasher]

Another study that I think ties into this is the fig tree.

There are times when Jesus talked about the fig and I believe that it is symbolic of Israel.

Jesus went looking for fruit on it and saw none.....he cursed it and said that it would NEVER bear fruit again (Matthew 21:19)

Then Jesus talked about bearing fruit in Luke 13:6-9 and said that the absence of fruit would cause a tree to be cut down.

And we finally have Romans 11 where because of unbelief individual gentiles would be cut out of the brance if one wanders into unbelief........but they could be grafted back in if they repent.

This is what I believe in relation to the verses of John 15. They were speaking of the unbelieving of Israel being cast out. I don't think this has anything to do with UES or OSAS other than the fact that the unbelieving Jews could escape being cast out through Christ.

[SisterT-Enduring2TheEnd]

Here's what I get from John 15:1-6. First, I note His audience which are the disciples who later became Apostles. Secondly, I see no reference to Israel in this address so Jesus isn't talking about Israel. This is what I see in this passage:

John 15:1-6 KJV

(1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

(2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Note the contrast. The branch that doesn't bear fruit is taken away yet the branch that does is prunes it so it can bear more fruit. Seems pretty clear to me.

(3) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Jesus declares them "clean". Contrast that to "unclean". IMHO, these guys are saved as those who are saved are "clean".

(4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Pretty straight forward. We can do NOTHING without abiding, or remaining in Christ as He is our life-source. As long as we abide or remain in Christ Jesus, we will bear much fruit.

(6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Now here's what happens when one does NOT abide in the vine. He is cast forth. Checking the Thayer's, that word "cast" means "to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls" and the word "forth" means "without, out of doors". So, to "cast forth" is to be throw out of doors without caring where it falls". That doesn't sound like something that's going to be refined to me. That sounds like it is trash, rubbish or refuse. Also, to be cast out, one HAD to be IN which does not sound like someone who was "never saved to begin with". "Withered" means "to become dry" which, if anyone ever saw plants when they start to wither, means death is taking place. After all, if life is in the vine then death is surely being out of it. Next, these "branches" are gathered together and cast into the fire to be burned. That word "burned" means "to burn, consume with fire". That does not sound like refining.

This passage is pretty straight forward to me. Abide (remain) in Him and you will be fruitful. Abide NOT and you will be cut off and burned.