Original sin

[hupo]

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

What about this one?

Sorry for all the questions!

Hey firehill! don't ever be sorry for asking questions. You might be asking something that someone else doesn't know how to ask

[firehill]

Firehill

Just had a quick browse. Age of accountability? What on earth is that? And where in scripture does it speak of such a thing?

When a person sins, the first time being probably when they are still a child they are accountable when they understand good from evil, right from wrong.

BTW Did you undertstand what I said about the difference between a state of sin (death) and a sinful act (as defined by a law)? Your comments seem to mix the two.

Blessings

I believe I did. Uh, I'll re-read my post and see if I'm coming across confusing...

K, I re-read my posts and yours. I understand there is a difference between 1) committing a sin (breaking law), 2) being born in physical death as a result of descending from Adam, and 3) spiritualy dieing which is a result of committing a sinful act. Adam broke God's command therefore comitted a sinful act. The consequence of his action was death and I take that to mean physical death since God explained how he shall return to the ground from which he was taken in Genesis 3. Therefore children are born in the state of physical death but not born spiritualy dead. Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act.

[Mutzrein]

Firehill

Just had a quick browse. Age of accountability? What on earth is that? And where in scripture does it speak of such a thing?

When a person sins, the first time being probably when they are still a child they are accountable when they understand good from evil, right from wrong.

BTW Did you undertstand what I said about the difference between a state of sin (death) and a sinful act (as defined by a law)? Your comments seem to mix the two.

Blessings

I believe I did. Uh, I'll re-read my post and see if I'm coming across confusing...

K, I re-read my posts and yours. I understand there is a difference between 1) committing a sin (breaking law), 2) being born in physical death as a result of descending from Adam, and 3) spiritualy dieing which is a result of committing a sinful act. Adam broke God's command therefore comitted a sinful act. The consequence of his action was death and I take that to mean physical death since God explained how he shall return to the ground from which he was taken in Genesis 3. Therefore children are born in the state of physical death but not born spiritualy dead. Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act.

Mmmm - well maybe the way I came across was wrong. I'm a bit pushed for time so maybe my choice of words has not been precise enough.

I am not saying 'Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act'

I am saying that from the 1st Adam to last Adam (Christ), none are born spiritually alive. But since the Spirit was given by God - after Jesus returned to the father, those to whom God has chosen to give life, have (or will be) born of the Spirit. Adam was the first to be born of the flesh. Christ was the first to be born of the Spirit. And all of mankind is born (of the flesh) in sin whether before Christ or after.

Am I going around in circles?

[eric]

from Mutzrein,

I am not saying 'Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act'

I am saying that from the 1st Adam to last Adam (Christ), none are born spiritually alive. But since the Spirit was given by God - after Jesus returned to the father, those to whom God has chosen to give life, have (or will be) born of the Spirit. Adam was the first to be born of the flesh. Christ was the first to be born of the Spirit. And all of mankind is born (of the flesh) in sin whether before Christ or after.

Am I going around in circles?

Well you are a bit mate, Firstly you say that none are born spiritually dead on account of Adam's sinful act. And in your second statement Those to whom God chose to give life have (or will be) will be born of the Spirit. Well I'll probably cause a stir here, but it is my own understanding that God doesn't choose to give life. The choice is ours if we abide in the word and accept His offer of salvation. If we reject it we will remain spiritually dead,

You are quite right that the second Adam (Christ) brought life....... He who has the son has life:he who has not the son of God has not the life 1JN.5:12. It's the H/S that convicts us and makes us aware of the fact that we need a saviour. That is why it's important to understand the function of the trinity. But that's another issue for a different thread.

So, those are some of my thoughts. Everyone will die in their sins if they don't heed the conviction of the H/S and seek God through The Son Jesus......simple.

[firehill]

Firehill

Just had a quick browse. Age of accountability? What on earth is that? And where in scripture does it speak of such a thing?

When a person sins, the first time being probably when they are still a child they are accountable when they understand good from evil, right from wrong.

BTW Did you undertstand what I said about the difference between a state of sin (death) and a sinful act (as defined by a law)? Your comments seem to mix the two.

Blessings

I believe I did. Uh, I'll re-read my post and see if I'm coming across confusing...

K, I re-read my posts and yours. I understand there is a difference between 1) committing a sin (breaking law), 2) being born in physical death as a result of descending from Adam, and 3) spiritualy dieing which is a result of committing a sinful act. Adam broke God's command therefore comitted a sinful act. The consequence of his action was death and I take that to mean physical death since God explained how he shall return to the ground from which he was taken in Genesis 3. Therefore children are born in the state of physical death but not born spiritualy dead. Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act.

Mmmm - well maybe the way I came across was wrong. I'm a bit pushed for time so maybe my choice of words has not been precise enough.

I am not saying 'Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act'

I am saying that from the 1st Adam to last Adam (Christ), none are born spiritually alive. But since the Spirit was given by God - after Jesus returned to the father, those to whom God has chosen to give life, have (or will be) born of the Spirit. Adam was the first to be born of the flesh. Christ was the first to be born of the Spirit. And all of mankind is born (of the flesh) in sin whether before Christ or after.

Am I going around in circles?

No you are not going in circles. There is a tremendous difference between being born with a spirit (a human one), comitting sin and then that spirit dying as a result of the act of sin comitted and not even having a spirit at all of anykind when born intell being born of the Spirit. Another way to put it is as you did. There is a difference between 'none are born spiritualy dead' and 'none are born spiritually alive' intell born of God. THANKS for clearing that up!

Now I'm going to think about what you've written before I can comment further. Do you think there is such a thing as a human spirit? If God made us in His image wouldn't that include spirituality, a human spirit? So therefore in a sense we are all born with a spirit but a human one. Then again maybe after birth just like our physical bodies it too is bound to entropy, breakdown, death or does it start to die only after the act of comitting sin?

No one is born of the Spirit upon human birth.

[Mutzrein]

Ahhh - one says I am going in cirlces and one says I'm not. Maybe it's a figure 8 then

Bear with me. I will come back to this and answer when I'm able

[Mutzrein]

from Mutzrein,

I am not saying 'Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act'

I am saying that from the 1st Adam to last Adam (Christ), none are born spiritually alive. But since the Spirit was given by God - after Jesus returned to the father, those to whom God has chosen to give life, have (or will be) born of the Spirit. Adam was the first to be born of the flesh. Christ was the first to be born of the Spirit. And all of mankind is born (of the flesh) in sin whether before Christ or after.

Am I going around in circles?

Well you are a bit mate, Firstly you say that none are born spiritually dead on account of Adam's sinful act. And in your second statement Those to whom God chose to give life have (or will be) will be born of the Spirit. Well I'll probably cause a stir here, but it is my own understanding that God doesn't choose to give life. The choice is ours if we abide in the word and accept His offer of salvation. If we reject it we will remain spiritually dead,

You are quite right that the second Adam (Christ) brought life....... He who has the son has life:he who has not the son of God has not the life 1JN.5:12. It's the H/S that convicts us and makes us aware of the fact that we need a saviour. That is why it's important to understand the function of the trinity. But that's another issue for a different thread.

So, those are some of my thoughts. Everyone will die in their sins if they don't heed the conviction of the H/S and seek God through The Son Jesus......simple.

Eric, could you tell me where I said, 'none are born spiritually dead on account of Adam's sinful act'. I was actually responding to what someone else said. That was their quote - not mine.

Once that is resolved I would like to look at the issue of God choosing to give us life. It will be worth a good stir

[firehill]

I will be waiting with some anticipation.

[Mutzrein]

Firehill

Just had a quick browse. Age of accountability? What on earth is that? And where in scripture does it speak of such a thing?

When a person sins, the first time being probably when they are still a child they are accountable when they understand good from evil, right from wrong.

BTW Did you undertstand what I said about the difference between a state of sin (death) and a sinful act (as defined by a law)? Your comments seem to mix the two.

Blessings

I believe I did. Uh, I'll re-read my post and see if I'm coming across confusing...

K, I re-read my posts and yours. I understand there is a difference between 1) committing a sin (breaking law), 2) being born in physical death as a result of descending from Adam, and 3) spiritualy dieing which is a result of committing a sinful act. Adam broke God's command therefore comitted a sinful act. The consequence of his action was death and I take that to mean physical death since God explained how he shall return to the ground from which he was taken in Genesis 3. Therefore children are born in the state of physical death but not born spiritualy dead. Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act.

Mmmm - well maybe the way I came across was wrong. I'm a bit pushed for time so maybe my choice of words has not been precise enough.

I am not saying 'Once any committs a sinful act they die spiritualy but none are born spiritualy dead on account of Adam's sinful act'

I am saying that from the 1st Adam to last Adam (Christ), none are born spiritually alive. But since the Spirit was given by God - after Jesus returned to the father, those to whom God has chosen to give life, have (or will be) born of the Spirit. Adam was the first to be born of the flesh. Christ was the first to be born of the Spirit. And all of mankind is born (of the flesh) in sin whether before Christ or after.

Am I going around in circles?

No you are not going in circles. There is a tremendous difference between being born with a spirit (a human one), comitting sin and then that spirit dying as a result of the act of sin comitted and not even having a spirit at all of anykind when born intell being born of the Spirit. Another way to put it is as you did. There is a difference between 'none are born spiritualy dead' and 'none are born spiritually alive' intell born of God. THANKS for clearing that up!

Now I'm going to think about what you've written before I can comment further. Do you think there is such a thing as a human spirit? If God made us in His image wouldn't that include spirituality, a human spirit? So therefore in a sense we are all born with a spirit but a human one. Then again maybe after birth just like our physical bodies it too is bound to entropy, breakdown, death or does it start to die only after the act of comitting sin?

No one is born of the Spirit upon human birth.

I don't make any differentiation between a 'human spirit' and any other spirit - apart from demonic of course.

It is the Spirit of God that gives birth to our spirit. And this occurs AFTER we are born of the flesh. So we are not born with a human spirit and then later born with another spirit. It is a fallacy.

We are born of the flesh . . . DEAD in tresspasses and sins. Christ came that we might have life - that we might born of the Spirit of God and be heirs with Christ of God and His wondrous kingdom.

Hallelujah!

[eric]

I'll have to get back to this as it's chow time. Good thread. c/ya later.