McCain Backs Gun Rights After Shootings

[JustinM]

What's wrong with arming everyone with tazers? They are generally non-lethal and you get to see the homicidal maniacs suffer in prison.

Hey geri, the problem with tazers is that people are trying to make the use of those illegal as well. Last week, the news had a story about whether or not the use of tazers were excessive force.

If we can't shoot an electrically charged dart at someone without controversy, do you really think tazers will be around much longer? A tazer is not a firearm, so a tazer is not protected by the US constitution, if we got rid of firearms first, tazers would quickly follow.

The fact is, there' s a group of people that want to be able to resist society without suffering resistance from society. They're obsessive control freaks on a power trip. Is there any other way to describe people that want to control and regulate our rights? But don't want to control an regulate our lives? Seems kind of backwards if you ask me.

Regulate gun use

Deregulate abortion

Regulate law enforcement

Deregulate punishment

Regulate land ownership

Deregulate criminal punishment.

Regulate Christianity

Deregulate homosexual behavior

Regulate Free Speech

Deregulate "artistic expression"

I could go on, but I'm getting a headache.

[Axxman]

I agree. It amazes me that some people are so slow that they think you can dis-arm the entire population. All you will dis-arm is the law abiding citizens who respect the law enough to give up their arms. Those people would not have committed crimes with them anyway. The criminals will not surrender their arms. Do people actually think that the criminals do not smuggle guns into this country? The drug importers are also gun runners. The major players in the drug ring want weapons that are not sold in the U.S. So, their true weapons of choice are smuggled in with their drugs. Real: AK-47, UZI, HK, etc. If you can get Kilos's of Coke into the country, Why not bring the weapons you want into the country as well?

The gun control mentality is of kindred mind to the "If we leave the terrorists alone, then they will leave us alone" mentality.

ALright hr.jr...out of respect for your position...let me ask you a couple questions based on some things you've said on here. So far, when it comes to gun use, your opinion is just about the only one that matters to me based on your training. You know tactical gun use, and you certainly know a thing or two about how they work. We've both been in do-or-die situations and you gotta think fast, and be accurate. Knowing what you know about the average citizen (not some gun hobbyist who shoots every other day) do you really think its wise to have a bunch of college kids pulling out guns everytime they hear a popping sound? You know as well as I do that every single thing you do in a given situation is important and that simply having a gun in your pocket isn't gonna cut it.

Also...I've never said a ban on guns, or a disarmament. What about the proper enforcement of gun laws? Do you have a problem with that? I have a problem with the idea that this kid was a nut-jub who was on meds, and seeing a psychology counselor..could buy two guns in two months, not to mention the gear to pull this off. Everytime something like this happens we find out that they were pretty much prime targets to snap.

I take a bit of an issue with your "seeming" disrespect of your fellow officers and saying you'd rather have some citizen with a gun backing you up, cuz your fellow cops "can't hit the side of a barn." I don't know where you are from so maybe thats an accurate statement...but I certainly don't think its fair to paint all law enforcement with that brush. Do you really think a private citizen could back you up in a tactical situation? Maybe I'd pick some gun nerd if I was in a competition...but not in a life or death scenario. I'd pick you everytime over ANY citizen I know with a gun. If I'm in a life or death situation and shots are being fired...it'd be really stupid for a citizen to pull out a gun. Even an off-duty police officer knows how dangerous it is to pull his gun in a situation where he isn't readily identifiable as a cop.

For me this isn't a "ban" issue...it is an enforcement issue.

[Marnie]

Excuse me, Axxman, what color is the sky in your universe? The FACT is that privately owned guns are used HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES EVERY YEAR to prevent serious crimes, and in the overwhelming majority of times, NO SHOT IS EVEN FIRED. Just the sight of the gun, causes the criminal to cease and desist.

Statistically the armed citizen is 17 times LESS LIKELY to accidentally shoot an innocent bystander, than is your touted 'highly trained' police department.

PS: The unarmed campus 'police' at VT were worthless.

Slow down John Wayne...

Where are the stats that prove the FACT that privately owned guns are used "hundreds of thousands of times" to prevent serious crimes.

AS far as private citizens being far less likely to accidentally shoot...true...because most times they don't shoot...they get shot because they are not trained. Don't turn this into an anti-cop diatribe.

As a cop, I will tell you, most cops are no more proficient with a firearm than the average private citizen. My mentality is I am going to shoot a 30X 100% every time I shoot because my life depends on it. Everyone I work with has the attitude "whew, I got my 80%, I do not have to shoot this pistol again for a year." I will put it in its holster without cleaning it and pull it out again next year and wonder why it jams. I Can break down my service weapon in 6 seconds. I sat in dispatch one day and watched 4 officers cooperatively spend over 50 minutes trying to figure out how to take their service weapon apart. At first I thought it was funny. Then it started to make me mad. It made me so mad I eventually could not stand it anymore. Of course I would lend absolutely no assistance. I told them all they were "worthless disgraces to the badge and needed to be security guards at the mall."

That's exactly why I pack! I know some of the local "boys" here, and how they have time to enforce the law between paint ball excursions is beyond me. We need to hit the range together some day. I agree with you...you need to be 100% accurate when you shoot. There is NO room for error.

[Axxman]

Leonard is quite correct. The statistics are available from the NRA, they quite accurately compile them from D.O.J. reporting provided by local, State, and Federal L.E. agencies quarterly. The raw statistics are also available from the Dept. of Justice if you see their numbers as inaccurate and would like to check them back.

I looked up the Bureau of Justice Stats. All they had was the results of a survey from 1987-1993 and in 6 years there was approx. 60,000 people who "tried" to defend their home with a gun...and approx. 10,000 (one-fifth) of those were shot. This is NOT a positive result...and is certainly not "hundreds of thousands"...so I'd like to see those stats. I would find them if I could.

Really, its irrelevant because I am not advocating removing guns from homes. I am merely calling for a change from the status quo of assuming that the way things are done now is just fine. The extremists on BOTH SIDES of this issue are wrong.

[dakota190]

excuse me for my impatience but i skipped to the last page when i saw the topic. i knew yesterday that all of the anti-gun people would jump all over this as an issue to try to prove their point. all i want to say is that you can't stop this kind of crazy. look at the places that handguns are illegal and compare the violent crime statistics to areas where handguns are legal. second, if it had not been handguns it would have been hunting rifles, do you want those gone too? or it could have been molotov cocktails, body bombs, car bombs, poison. he could have and probably would have done the same thing with any number of other materials and techniques. he could have waited until a sporting event and drove his car into a crowd at a high speed. do we make cars illegal?

it is the mental illness, not the method. why is it liberals don't seem to want to put anyone in prison, but want to try to rehabilitate the most offensive and heinous criminals, but when some nut job goes off, they want to crucify a college president? i am not aiming this at anyone in particular, just wanting to make a point or two.

this thread can go on and on with everyone venting all over the place and the dust hasn't even settled. we are all in a kneejerk mode. yesterday they didn't even know how many people had been killed yet and the press was already trying to convict the college president and the local police of being incompetent. talk about the pot calling the kettle. how about we all try to wait and see what all of the details are before we start jumping all over each other and especially on the authorities.

lets pray for the victims and their friends and families and do our grieving and our burying, then lets talk.

note, i don't trust anyone with a gun more than i trust myself. i know when i am going to shoot and when i am not. and i hit what i shoot at. that goes for civilians and cops and military, with no disrespect intended towards anyone. i have met alot of people some in law enforcement and out, that i wouldn't trust with a sharp stick. but for the most part, give me a cop that has been trained with a handgun that works the streets when i call for help.

thanks for allowing me the time for my opinion.

[Eliyahuw]

If my campus were suddenly to support professors and students to have the freedom to carry weapons with them, I would go to a different school.

I also disagree with the idea of only giving American citizens rights to be allowed to carry weapons. Would this arguement have come up if the shooter had been an American?

Absolutely. What if its a islamic terrorist from pakistan, iran, or saudi arabia?

if your not American why allow you to carry a weapon on American soil?

[apothanein kerdos]

Excuse me, Axxman, what color is the sky in your universe? The FACT is that privately owned guns are used HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES EVERY YEAR to prevent serious crimes, and in the overwhelming majority of times, NO SHOT IS EVEN FIRED. Just the sight of the gun, causes the criminal to cease and desist.

Statistically the armed citizen is 17 times LESS LIKELY to accidentally shoot an innocent bystander, than is your touted 'highly trained' police department.

PS: The unarmed campus 'police' at VT were worthless.

Slow down John Wayne...

Where are the stats that prove the FACT that privately owned guns are used "hundreds of thousands of times" to prevent serious crimes.

AS far as private citizens being far less likely to accidentally shoot...true...because most times they don't shoot...they get shot because they are not trained. Don't turn this into an anti-cop diatribe.

As a cop, I will tell you, most cops are no more proficient with a firearm than the average private citizen. My mentality is I am going to shoot a 30X 100% every time I shoot because my life depends on it. Everyone I work with has the attitude "whew, I got my 80%, I do not have to shoot this pistol again for a year." I will put it in its holster without cleaning it and pull it out again next year and wonder why it jams. I Can break down my service weapon in 6 seconds. I sat in dispatch one day and watched 4 officers cooperatively spend over 50 minutes trying to figure out how to take their service weapon apart. At first I thought it was funny. Then it started to make me mad. It made me so mad I eventually could not stand it anymore. Of course I would lend absolutely no assistance. I told them all they were "worthless disgraces to the badge and needed to be security guards at the mall."

That's exactly why I pack! I know some of the local "boys" here, and how they have time to enforce the law between paint ball excursions is beyond me. We need to hit the range together some day. I agree with you...you need to be 100% accurate when you shoot. There is NO room for error.

In a live fire incident, your accuracy decreases by 80%. That's why it's best to shoot to the point that it's nothing more than a motion...that way adrenaline doesn't get in the way of your accuracy.

[Eliyahuw]

Excuse me, Axxman, what color is the sky in your universe? The FACT is that privately owned guns are used HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES EVERY YEAR to prevent serious crimes, and in the overwhelming majority of times, NO SHOT IS EVEN FIRED. Just the sight of the gun, causes the criminal to cease and desist.

Statistically the armed citizen is 17 times LESS LIKELY to accidentally shoot an innocent bystander, than is your touted 'highly trained' police department.

PS: The unarmed campus 'police' at VT were worthless.

Slow down John Wayne...

Where are the stats that prove the FACT that privately owned guns are used "hundreds of thousands of times" to prevent serious crimes.

AS far as private citizens being far less likely to accidentally shoot...true...because most times they don't shoot...they get shot because they are not trained. Don't turn this into an anti-cop diatribe.

As a cop, I will tell you, most cops are no more proficient with a firearm than the average private citizen. My mentality is I am going to shoot a 30X 100% every time I shoot because my life depends on it. Everyone I work with has the attitude "whew, I got my 80%, I do not have to shoot this pistol again for a year." I will put it in its holster without cleaning it and pull it out again next year and wonder why it jams. I Can break down my service weapon in 6 seconds. I sat in dispatch one day and watched 4 officers cooperatively spend over 50 minutes trying to figure out how to take their service weapon apart. At first I thought it was funny. Then it started to make me mad. It made me so mad I eventually could not stand it anymore. Of course I would lend absolutely no assistance. I told them all they were "worthless disgraces to the badge and needed to be security guards at the mall."

That's exactly why I pack! I know some of the local "boys" here, and how they have time to enforce the law between paint ball excursions is beyond me. We need to hit the range together some day. I agree with you...you need to be 100% accurate when you shoot. There is NO room for error.

In a live fire incident, your accuracy decreases by 80%. That's why it's best to shoot to the point that it's nothing more than a motion...that way adrenaline doesn't get in the way of your accuracy.

May be for some, but for those that actually use their weapons daily in some form or fashion, no it doesn't decrease. Ever heard of a fast draw? I practice live fire with the army rangers near hear all the time. Like i said before in a previous post. i hit what i shoot at 100% of the time. You don't go firing blindly. you take the time to sight in and fire. Only gangstas and idiots fire off rounds without having their target sighted in.

[apothanein kerdos]

Excuse me, Axxman, what color is the sky in your universe? The FACT is that privately owned guns are used HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES EVERY YEAR to prevent serious crimes, and in the overwhelming majority of times, NO SHOT IS EVEN FIRED. Just the sight of the gun, causes the criminal to cease and desist.

Statistically the armed citizen is 17 times LESS LIKELY to accidentally shoot an innocent bystander, than is your touted 'highly trained' police department.

PS: The unarmed campus 'police' at VT were worthless.

Slow down John Wayne...

Where are the stats that prove the FACT that privately owned guns are used "hundreds of thousands of times" to prevent serious crimes.

AS far as private citizens being far less likely to accidentally shoot...true...because most times they don't shoot...they get shot because they are not trained. Don't turn this into an anti-cop diatribe.

As a cop, I will tell you, most cops are no more proficient with a firearm than the average private citizen. My mentality is I am going to shoot a 30X 100% every time I shoot because my life depends on it. Everyone I work with has the attitude "whew, I got my 80%, I do not have to shoot this pistol again for a year." I will put it in its holster without cleaning it and pull it out again next year and wonder why it jams. I Can break down my service weapon in 6 seconds. I sat in dispatch one day and watched 4 officers cooperatively spend over 50 minutes trying to figure out how to take their service weapon apart. At first I thought it was funny. Then it started to make me mad. It made me so mad I eventually could not stand it anymore. Of course I would lend absolutely no assistance. I told them all they were "worthless disgraces to the badge and needed to be security guards at the mall."

That's exactly why I pack! I know some of the local "boys" here, and how they have time to enforce the law between paint ball excursions is beyond me. We need to hit the range together some day. I agree with you...you need to be 100% accurate when you shoot. There is NO room for error.

In a live fire incident, your accuracy decreases by 80%. That's why it's best to shoot to the point that it's nothing more than a motion...that way adrenaline doesn't get in the way of your accuracy.

May be for some, but for those that actually use their weapons daily in some form or fashion, no it doesn't decrease. Ever heard of a fast draw? I practice live fire with the army rangers near hear all the time. Like i said before in a previous post. i hit what i shoot at 100% of the time. You don't go firing blindly. you take the time to sight in and fire. Only gangstas and idiots fire off rounds without having their target sighted in.

Which is why I said what I did. You don't need to pick a debate with everyone that comes along mate. I was saying that people need to practice firing their weapons so it becomes mechanic..that way accuracy doesn't decrease.

[Marnie]

Excuse me, Axxman, what color is the sky in your universe? The FACT is that privately owned guns are used HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES EVERY YEAR to prevent serious crimes, and in the overwhelming majority of times, NO SHOT IS EVEN FIRED. Just the sight of the gun, causes the criminal to cease and desist.

Statistically the armed citizen is 17 times LESS LIKELY to accidentally shoot an innocent bystander, than is your touted 'highly trained' police department.

PS: The unarmed campus 'police' at VT were worthless.

Slow down John Wayne...

Where are the stats that prove the FACT that privately owned guns are used "hundreds of thousands of times" to prevent serious crimes.

AS far as private citizens being far less likely to accidentally shoot...true...because most times they don't shoot...they get shot because they are not trained. Don't turn this into an anti-cop diatribe.

As a cop, I will tell you, most cops are no more proficient with a firearm than the average private citizen. My mentality is I am going to shoot a 30X 100% every time I shoot because my life depends on it. Everyone I work with has the attitude "whew, I got my 80%, I do not have to shoot this pistol again for a year." I will put it in its holster without cleaning it and pull it out again next year and wonder why it jams. I Can break down my service weapon in 6 seconds. I sat in dispatch one day and watched 4 officers cooperatively spend over 50 minutes trying to figure out how to take their service weapon apart. At first I thought it was funny. Then it started to make me mad. It made me so mad I eventually could not stand it anymore. Of course I would lend absolutely no assistance. I told them all they were "worthless disgraces to the badge and needed to be security guards at the mall."

That's exactly why I pack! I know some of the local "boys" here, and how they have time to enforce the law between paint ball excursions is beyond me. We need to hit the range together some day. I agree with you...you need to be 100% accurate when you shoot. There is NO room for error.

In a live fire incident, your accuracy decreases by 80%. That's why it's best to shoot to the point that it's nothing more than a motion...that way adrenaline doesn't get in the way of your accuracy.

May be for some, but for those that actually use their weapons daily in some form or fashion, no it doesn't decrease. Ever heard of a fast draw? I practice live fire with the army rangers near hear all the time. Like i said before in a previous post. i hit what i shoot at 100% of the time. You don't go firing blindly. you take the time to sight in and fire. Only gangstas and idiots fire off rounds without having their target sighted in.

You should be proficient to the point that you can not miss a body mass shot at 10 yards. Assuming you get caught off guard and have to react. You should be able to hit the first body mass shot simply from arm extension memory. It should be fired as the arm is extending. This does not create any time loss, because the second shot will still be fired at the same time a traditional first would have been. The second should be accurate using sight picture, the third should be a cranial vault finisher.

Academy worthy instruction!