Europe - Thy Name Is Cowardice

[eric]

Silent prayer,

Amen Nebula, Amen!

You can say that again.

[Celtic Warrior]

for all you detractors, and all those accusing me of pacifism, I will remind you that I said I was

a Christian who believed we should pursue the path of Peace whenever and wherever POSSIBLE, including up to the point of giving your life if necessary

. I never said I was an unbridled appeaser. What I attacked was the eagerness of Christians to seek the path of war over the path of Peace. I served my country, voluntarily, during the Vietnam War. I paid my dues and EARNED my right to believe in Peace over war. How many of you can say the same? And how many are just armchair generals, unwilling to put yourself in harms way, yet eager to send others into harms way and to shed the blood and lives of others so you can live in comfort and freedom???? I volunteered for military service, during a time when such was not in favor, because I believed it the right thing to do AT THE TIME! Don't even dare to question my willingness to serve or my intelligence, as I have finished many a high school, college and vocational course at the top of my class AND with Honors. As a Christian I have come to understand Scripture to show that Christians are to take a different path, above and outside of that taken by the world. A path putting Peace, Love, Mercy, Compassion and Understanding above the other path, the path of war, vendetta, vengence, hate and evil. If you have problems with that, I'm sorry, but don't call me names or impune my honor or willingness to die for my beliefs or to serve my fellow man as best as my understanding of what God intends us to. If you have something to say SCRIPTURALLY, I'm all ears, but found it in proper scripture, proper context and proper interpretation, not inane comments meant to demean or questions meant to avoid the issue, like Leonard is wont to do.

As to any comments about Christ promoting war, or his Peace statements only applying in some ways and not in others, I say prove it with Scripture, not self ideology.

As far as being able to answer each and every posting, I just went on 7-12's on my job and my time is small for being here, but I will try to answer any intelligent responses. If you're attacking or being idiotic then don't expect a reply. I realize I don't understand all of scripture, and neither does anyone else, so I am willing to hear proper points of view, but I do expect you to show your proofs and be willing to discuss, not argue.

And I still stand by my statements that "Christians" (yes, I am repeating the quotes, on purpose, for the reason I already laid out previously) are far too eager to seek war solutions instead of diplomatic or peaceful ones, and far to eager to attack those who see things differently, INCLUDING other Christians. I don't have the time tonight to look up the passage, but I do recall Paul saying that without LOVE, EVERYTHING ELSE you do is meaningless and worthless in the sight of God. Faith, Hope, Charity, obedience, EVERYTHING must be done in LOVE, not hate.

That is my stand, and will have to be all I can post tonight.

[Celtic Warrior]

Sorry, but you are completely wrong. Being a Pacifist is a VERY, VERY EVIL THING. The Pacifist would sit by while 6,000,000 Jews were gased. The Pacifist would not raise one finger to stop Saddam from murdering the 5,000,000 Iraqis he killed.

(edited by moderator)

When you are intellectually honest enough to answer your own question about how your Scripture quote was out of context, you will be ready to engage in realistic discussion.

Well now, there's a really "Intelligent" response. Sad that that's the best ya got, but it is ever so typical of so many I've read here. I'd wish you a peaceful day, but that would be so 'pacifistic' and I'd hate to do that to you.

(edited by moderator)

If you will just respond to how the Pacifist would handle Hitler and Saddam, (edited by moderator) Please, by all means, tell us what you'd do with Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc..........

As for all your questiones about evil regimes? How many of those you listed did the US actually attack? Very Few. Which country is the largest persecuter of Christians in the world and is now our largest trading partner? COMMUNIST CHINA. Who, incidentally is also one of the largest mass murders of political prisoners in recent History, yet how many things do you own that say Made in China on them? How many times do you buy at Walmart, the largest US importer of Chinese goods? How many made in India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, etc items do you own? ALL of those nations have high rates of arrests and executions of people who just want to be Christian. Why did the US give the Security seat of the REPUBLIC of China to Communist China during the Reagan Administration? Because it was economically expediant to the Rich to overlook the evils of that nation for a profit margin gain. And it proved to be a correct assessment, since millions of Americans are buying COMMUNIST made goods, because they're cheap!!! It's perfectly ok to deal with EVIL regimes if you make a profit and improve your own life I guess, or so the Americans seem to support. Do you wish me to go on? Cars from eastern block countries abound in this nation, economic and financial aid flows to many of those "Evil Empires", especially for OIL, such as Venezuala which recently removed all foreign Christian Missionaries and is currently suppressing their resident Christian Populations. I know that 2nd hand as I know a couple who were part of that recent removal. Saddam himself had US help gaining power, so did the regime that proceeded the current Iranian Regime, the Shah of Iran, a very evil despot, supported by US CIA money. So it's ok to make war on those nations with no economic benefit, despite their evilness, but ok to overlook the mass murderings of countries that have much wealth for us to plunder. Nations that support slave labor conditions as well. I challenge you to go through your things and catalog all the things you have and where they're from, then compare those countries for their Human Rights violations.

Being a warmonger is far from being Christian, and having a hateful attitude towards others is also NOT a fruit of the Spirit. And yes, I do request that YOU tell me why you think that passage is out of context. Giving inane comments, asking avoidance questions to avoid the issue and assaulting the intelligence or integrity of others is NOT an answer, it is a mockery and unworthy of anyone wearing the mantle of Christ.

If you chose to attack me again, don't expect a reply, I will treat such a response for what it's worth, a quick inclusion in the round file. And I will also add the question I asked in the previous post, but target you specifically. I volunteered to serve my country, during a time of war, how about YOU? Did you serve your country at any time? Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is and live by your beliefs, or are you just another mouthy, opinionated buffoon who is eager to send others to die for your beliefs and freedoms?

If you wish to continue a discussion, then be Christian about it, NOT hateful and opinionated. AND provide references and proof, not unsupported allegations, questions meant to avoid answering, comments meant to denigrate or baseless accusations of my character or intelligences.

[Celtic Warrior]

as to being a pacifist? I would say that I am a Christian who believes Jesus teaches us to choose the path of Peace whereever and however possible, even unto giving our lives for our fellow man. And I do take exception to Hawk Christians attacking those of us who believe that way. Being a "Pacifist" is not an evil thing, but instead if all men would follow the path of peace, instead of running headlong to war at every drop of the hat and every perceived injustice or threat, there would be far fewer dead innocents in this world.

Hello Celtic Warrior -

I like your username!

((I'm a bit puzzled by it now, though. ))

I have a question - why did not John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, nor Paul tell any of the Roman soldiers and centurians whom they interracted with to put down their swords?

The name comes from Honoring my ancestors, who were Celts and apparently early Christian Monks in Ireland and Scotland, thus the Warrior (for Christ) part.

[nebula]

Hello Celtic Warrior -

I like your username!

((I'm a bit puzzled by it now, though. ))

The name comes from Honoring my ancestors, who were Celts and apparently early Christian Monks in Ireland and Scotland, thus the Warrior (for Christ) part.

OK - that makes sense.

(Note: I hope I didn't sound like I was ragging on you; it was merely a puzzlement on my part. Thanks for clarifying. )

[apothanein kerdos]

Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is and live by your beliefs, or are you just another mouthy, opinionated buffoon who is eager to send others to die for your beliefs and freedoms?

How does the above not contradict what is below?

If you wish to continue a discussion, then be Christian about it, NOT hateful and opinionated.

As I pointed out, and you did not respond to, personal peace is also about how we treat people. It is easy to say, "No war" to a government, or to call Christians warmongers. It is much harder when we tell ourselves to be at peace with our fellow man, even when they upset us. Yet, this is what Christ calls for. I fail at that on a daily basis, but it doesn't stop me from recognizing that it is what Christ has called us to do.

[EricH]

Saints,

I am going to remind you of our TOS regarding personal attacks:

Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

A passage I have found helpful in this regard is:

The Lord's slave must not quarrel, but must be gentle to everyone, able to teach, and patient, instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance to know the truth. Then they may come to their senses and escape the Devil's trap, having been captured by him to do his will.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 HCSB

Please be respectful of one another. If you need to attack someone to make your point, you really don't have a point worth defending. You should be able to defend your position based on the strength of the evidence. The relative intelligence of your opponent has nothing to do with the truth of your point.

Here is the warning part. If individuals cannot abide by this, we will take steps ranging from editing posts, to mod review, to shutting down threads, to banning in extreme situations.

Thanks,

the Mod team

[Celtic Warrior]

Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is and live by your beliefs, or are you just another mouthy, opinionated buffoon who is eager to send others to die for your beliefs and freedoms?

How does the above not contradict what is below?

If you wish to continue a discussion, then be Christian about it, NOT hateful and opinionated.

As I pointed out, and you did not respond to, personal peace is also about how we treat people. It is easy to say, "No war" to a government, or to call Christians warmongers. It is much harder when we tell ourselves to be at peace with our fellow man, even when they upset us. Yet, this is what Christ calls for. I fail at that on a daily basis, but it doesn't stop me from recognizing that it is what Christ has called us to do.

Yes, and I fail it pretty regularly too, I don't deny it and, as I recall actually said in earlier posts that I'm far from perfect in my walk with Christ. My post to Leonard was intended to respond to his accusation of me avoiding answering him, to tell him that if he's going to just attack then I will not respond and if he wished to continue discussing the issue that I would do so as long as he remained civil and Christian in his responses. Perhaps the way I worded it is not as Christian as it should be, but the intent behind the post is. As to how or why that offends you I'm not sure.

As to my not responding to your posts, time is not my ally right now and I feel what you've posted requires more than just quick replies. I am not avoiding you or your opinions, but until I have time to properly form a respectable response I'm afraid you will have to wait. It's hard to write a one hour considered reply when one has two hours to work with each evening.

Again, my posts were not aimed at governments, but at the vehement postings attacking Europeans because they believe in a different, more peace oriented approach to the problems confronting the world. My statements are intended to call to task the arrogant responses that the world must somehow respond to things as American Right Wing Conservative Christians wish to dictate. The world, including most of the non Right Wing and the non American Christian world does NOT share those opinions or methodologies of said group of hard line Americans or their attitudes.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Celtic Warrior

[Guest yod]

Again, my posts were not aimed at governments, but at the vehement postings attacking Europeans because they believe in a different, more peace oriented approach to the problems confronting the world.

peace-oriented?

appeasement is not "peace" it is "cowardice".

This is exactly what has been happening in Europe towards Islamic invasion since the Barbary Coast Wars of the late 1700s

My statements are intended to call to task the arrogant responses that the world must somehow respond to things as American Right Wing Conservative Christians wish to dictate. The world, including most of the non Right Wing and the non American Christian world does NOT share those opinions or methodologies of said group of hard line Americans or their attitudes.

And that is exactly why they have experienced tyranny in all its forms....communism, fascism, socialism, islamism, etc...

Until one stands against tyranny by whatever means necessary, they will always be subjugated by the brutal.

The method can only exclude idolotry and greed

[nebula]

Again, my posts were not aimed at governments, but at the vehement postings attacking Europeans because they believe in a different, more peace oriented approach to the problems confronting the world.

Have you heard about Brittain deciding not to teach about the Holocaust anymore so as to not offend the Muslims?

Is this what you would call a "peace oriented approach"?

I'll say it again - appeasement is slavery.