Purgatory...defend this false doctrine!

[gypc]

By the way the concept of purgatory does not negate the cross.

No, it doesn't negate, it adds to...................it adds to.......................it adds to!!!

[Floatingaxe]

By the way the concept of purgatory does not negate the cross.

No, it doesn't negate, it adds to...................it adds to.......................it adds to!!!

It does negate, however, the totality of Jesus' precious blood covering for ALL our unrighteousness. I am positive Jesus is dishonoured by such a belief, and those who embrace it will have to answer the question, "Why was My blood not good enough for you?" and, "Did I not love you enough?".... I shudder to think what effect the answer will or won't have on them.

[Kansasdad]

Matthew 12:32

"Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come."

If we look at this scripture in it's context we find that jesus is talking about something so evil that he magnifies his word by saying "or the age to come." .In other words, it is so serious that your done for eternity.

The problem with false doctrine is it always takes a scripture out from many to say what it wants instead of defining all scripture or being defined by other scripture. We must understand that if we use this princible for this scripture, it will define that Jesus' death was only part of salvation and his blood was almost enough which we know to be untrue

All cults spawned from so called bible teaching always and I mean always add or take away from the cross. This is one way to spot out false doctrine, cult teaching and such.

JWs say there is no hell. We say show us...........so they quote this scripture Ecc 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

They use this scripture to define all scripture concerning hell even though there are a bunch of scriptures that define hell as a real place. Sad.........!

The Bible will never contradict itself, it will always define itself.

I agree scripture will never contradict itself. The problem is that you have to introject your understanding into Jesus's words to hold your position. Jesus would not have given us an example of something that was a false doctrine, or a lie, or that is contrary to his truth, just to make a point. So your conclusion that Jesus was just overstating to make a point depends on Jesus also sugesting a false doctrine to do so. I for one do not think Jesus would do this. He talks about a forgiveness after death. There MUST be something to it, or Jesus would not have said it.

As for the rest of your post it is all opinion and conjecture.

You are also right it is better to see if other scripture supports the idea. So lets look further,

CaritateDei second verse:

1 Corinthians 3:15

"If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire."

Again, this cannot refer to hell. No one in hell is saved. It cannot refer to heaven either, because no one in Heaven will suffer. Where does this suffering come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven.

Do you notice how the two verses support each other. Scripture supporting Scripture.

Can anyone answer this question. Where is this suffering, this loss, this fire happening. It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell.

Everyone's works will be tried by fire....the fire of God. Holy fire. If the works stand, or survive, there are rewards. If the works are consumed, they are for naught.

Very good, thank you, but where does this suffering loss occur, it can't be hell, the person is saved, and it can't be heaven, there is no suffering in heaven. Put the two verses together and you start to get the picture, but we don't have to stop there. There is more scripture to look at.

Lets look at his third point:

1 Peter 3:18-20

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the Ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons were saved through water."

Continuing on that same note:

1 Peter 4:6

"For this is why the Gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God."

A prison for disobedient spirits...yet some of the dead were saved after Jesus preached to them. This prison that is referred to by Peter is cannot be hell, because no one in hell can be saved. This prison cannot refer to the land of the dead fathers...(Abraham, Adam, Moses...Abraham's bosom) because this was a place for disobedient spirits. Peter is not describing the waiting of the righteous in mentioning disobedient spirits. He is describing a temporary state for disobedient souls who were eventually saved.

Now we see in three different area of the Bible reference to something that can not be Hell and can not be Heaven. Not from CaritateDei but from the words of God

[exrockstar]

Everyone's works will be tried by fire....the fire of God. Holy fire. If the works stand, or survive, there are rewards. If the works are consumed, they are for naught.

every Christian's work to be exact. this is the Bema seat of Christ. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Edited April 25, 2007 by exrockstar

[Floatingaxe]

Everyone's works will be tried by fire....the fire of God. Holy fire. If the works stand, or survive, there are rewards. If the works are consumed, they are for naught.

every Christian's work to be exact. this is the Bema seat of Christ. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Yes! I stand corrected!

[Kansasdad]

By the way the concept of purgatory does not negate the cross.

No, it doesn't negate, it adds to...................it adds to.......................it adds to!!!

It does negate, however, the totality of Jesus' precious blood covering for ALL our unrighteousness. I am positive Jesus is dishonoured by such a belief, and those who embrace it will have to answer the question, "Why was My blood not good enough for you?" and, "Did I not love you enough?".... I shudder to think what effect the answer will or won't have on them.

I understand what you are trying to say, but to say this you are saying that Scripture negates or adds to Scripture, and this is not possible. Without the blood of Christ on the Cross it would not be possible in any fashion for us to get into heaven period. The concept of purgatory does not change that in the slightest.

[Floatingaxe]

By the way the concept of purgatory does not negate the cross.

No, it doesn't negate, it adds to...................it adds to.......................it adds to!!!

It does negate, however, the totality of Jesus' precious blood covering for ALL our unrighteousness. I am positive Jesus is dishonoured by such a belief, and those who embrace it will have to answer the question, "Why was My blood not good enough for you?" and, "Did I not love you enough?".... I shudder to think what effect the answer will or won't have on them.

I understand what you are trying to say, but to say this you are saying that Scripture negates or adds to Scripture, and this is not possible. Without the blood of Christ on the Cross it would not be possible in any fashion for us to get into heaven period. The concept of purgatory does not change that in the slightest.

Purgatory as a concept does exactly what I said. It denies Jesus' blood the full atonement power. What part of, "It is finished!" do people who embrace Purgatory not believe or understand?

[exrockstar]

Everyone's works will be tried by fire....the fire of God. Holy fire. If the works stand, or survive, there are rewards. If the works are consumed, they are for naught.

every Christian's work to be exact. this is the Bema seat of Christ. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

Yes! I stand corrected!

"suffering loss" is not a physical pain. it is a loss of rewards.

you can dedicate your whole life saving the whales but if you concentrated on saving the whales versus saving

people by introducing them to Christ.

then "yes" it will hurt your feelings that your " lifetime of works" would not have any value. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

[Kansasdad]

By the way the concept of purgatory does not negate the cross.

No, it doesn't negate, it adds to...................it adds to.......................it adds to!!!

It does negate, however, the totality of Jesus' precious blood covering for ALL our unrighteousness. I am positive Jesus is dishonored by such a belief, and those who embrace it will have to answer the question, "Why was My blood not good enough for you?" and, "Did I not love you enough?".... I shudder to think what effect the answer will or won't have on them.

I understand what you are trying to say, but to say this you are saying that Scripture negates or adds to Scripture, and this is not possible. Without the blood of Christ on the Cross it would not be possible in any fashion for us to get into heaven period. The concept of purgatory does not change that in the slightest.

Purgatory as a concept does exactly what I said. It denies Jesus' blood the full atonement power. What part of, "It is finished!" do people who embrace Purgatory not believe or understand?

Again you are not dealing with the points made or the verses provided. If Scripture contradicts your understanding of "it is finished" then maybe your understanding of "it is finished" is wrong? FL you have yet to respond directly to the questions asked or points made on three verses of scripture that refer to something that can not be heaven and can not be Hell. Guess what there are more, but it is late and I am going to bed. I will post more tomorrow.

[larryt]

Lets slow down and take a different approach here. No one is directly dealing with the points made. What I see is statement of this can't be right because I believe in a doctrine supported by such and such verse, yet never directly dealing with the points that CaritateDei made. So lets back up and only deal with one thing at a time.

Lets start with his first point,

Matthew 12:32

"Whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or the age to come."

If Jesus forgave all of our sins by his death and resurrection and we need no other cleansing for salvation, why does he give the implication that some sins can be forgiven in the next world? Those in hell cannot be forgiven. Those in heaven NEED not be forgiven. Where does this remission of sin come from? A purification the soul must endure to enter heaven.

IF you are going to quote different scripture that contradict this scripture then you have created a problem and we must always reconcile all scripture with each other. If we can't then we have mis-interpreted the scripture. Scripture does not contradict scripture. It is someones interpretation that is wrong.

Can anyone answer this question.

Matt. 12:32 is not talking about sins in general nor is it talking about any sin that a believer can commit. It is talking about a particular sin -- Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, saying and believing that the Holy Spirit is an unholy thing and thus saying that God is evil. It is in essence saying that this sin once committed will never be forgiven. You cannot beg for forgiveness here on this earth and you won't be forgiven when you stan before the Lord on judgement day.

It is clear from many scriptures that the sacrifice of Christ was sufficient to cleanse His people from all their sins.

Col 2:13