Age of accountibility

[Guest roc12]

Thank God we all are made unique. With that comes different growth of maturity. With this, only God knows when a child has reached his or her accountability age. Some reach it younger while others are older. Why? Only GOd knows, so lets just leave it there and with Him. Now, it's not to say that once a person reaches adult age that due to His or Her lack of growth still is under the unaccountability age. No, there is a common sense cut off age for those people. Again, God knows this too. Some people just plain refuse to grow up. This, is a choice they are making so they must be held accountable. But as for a child, again, God only knows when they are mature enough to understand and can choose their actions. Hope this helps.

Roc :a2:

[Guest mcm42]

I don't mean to get off the subject, but the question is what really saves, God's Choosing me or my Choosing Christ.

If God chooses me, then there is no need for an age of accountability (and so I believe this is why it is unaddressed in God's word) and if I believe I have to do something to be saved (like a work ) then there is a need for a age of accountablity.

Way I see it God Elects, and our salvation is first by grace through the gift of faith, not by repentance, or any other "action". Therefore a baby can be saved just as well as a stubborn old man, point is it's God's choosing not man's doing, that saves!

IMO

[Guest Calamity]

I don't mean to get off the subject, but the question is what really saves, God's Choosing me or my Choosing Christ.

If God chooses me, then there is no need for an age of accountability (and so I believe this is why it is unaddressed in God's word) and if I believe I have to do something to be saved (like a work  ) then there is a need for a age of accountablity.

Oh boy. The way I understand it, we do have to repent, and we do have a choice of whether or not to heed the call of God. We can disobey Him, and not accept Him, or we can believe, repent and accept Him. We're not robots.

These people 'chose': (By the way, "choose", "accept", "repent", "believe", are not action verbs implying a work of the physical sort. They're passive verbs, as far as I know. Not physical works, but matters of the heart.)

Josh.24

[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

[21] And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

[22] And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

These people also made a choice:

Prov.1

[29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Prov.3

[31] Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

Isa.65

[12] Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Repeated here again:

Isa.66

[4] I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

A definite choice to be made here:

Matt.6

[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Can someone not capable of understanding right from wrong do this? No.

Way I see it God Elects, and our salvation is first by grace through the gift of faith, not by repentance, or any other "action".  Therefore a baby can be saved just as well as a stubborn old man, point is it's God's choosing not man's doing, that saves!

Babies, and children who are too young to know the difference between good and evil do not have the capabililty of making a choice or of repenting of something they don't even realize is wrong. Therefore, they are not accountable until they reach that understanding. Then, they must make a decision. It's plain silly, IMO, to think that a baby, a newborn baby can "be saved" or "not be saved". They are in God's hands, while they are in this "unaccountable" age, and would certainly go to heaven if they died, but not because they consciously made a decision about something they had no understanding of yet.

Then, there's that matter of repentance:

Matt.9

[13] But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matt.11

[20] Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Matt.12

[41] The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mark 1

[14] Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

[15] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

(Note that Jesus Himself said "repent ye, and believe the gospel.")

Mark.2

[17] When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark.6

[12] And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luke.13

[3] I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

[5] I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Sounds like repentance is part of it to me.

Luke.15

[7] I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

[10] Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Luke.16

[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luke.24

[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts.3

[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts.11

[18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts.17

[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts.20

[21] Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom.2

[4] Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2Cor.7

[10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Rev.9

[20] And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

[21] Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Rev.16

[9] And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

[11] And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

I believe God calls us, or chooses us, but I also believe that we have to repent and believe, and that choice is ours. He will not force us. He would have all men to be saved, but we know that not all will be saved. Why? Because not all will heed or obey the call of God when they feel it. They will not all believe, they will not all repent.

2Pet.3

[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Can a baby really "believe"? Is he capable of doing that until he is old enough to understand what and who he's believing in? Believing is part of it also.

Acts.8

[37] And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts.10

[43] To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts.13

[39] And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Rom.3

[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal.3

[22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

John.11

[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts.10

[43] To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

1John.5

[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

And, the good, old John 3:15-16:

John.3

[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

King David knew that his child was going to heaven. It said nothing at all about that child being capable of believing or of repenting, but even so, the child was in God's hand, because he was not old enough to make a choice for himself, or old enough to understand the difference between evil and good. David was rejoicing AFTER the child died, not before, because he knew this:

2 Sam. 12:

[13] And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

[14] Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

[15] And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

[16] David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

[17] And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

[18] And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

[19] But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

[20] Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.

[21] Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

[22] And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

[23] But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

King David knew he would see his child again in heaven, even though it says nothing about the child making a choice to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord, to repent or not to repent, to believe or not to believe, because that child was not accountable yet, and was in God's hands because of that.

In my opinion and understanding, to follow the Calvinist viewpoint to it's logical conclusion, you would not need missionaries, you'd not need to witness, you'd not need to pray for the lost, or any of that. You'd either be "born saved" or "born not saved", and that would be that. Why preach? Why witness? Why support missionaries? Why go to church? Why have church, preachers or any of it? It wouldn't make a difference at all.

OK, this is my 2 cents on this, for what it's worth.

[Guest zhavoney]

xyz

[Guest Bobtep23]

Until a child is old enough to realize the difference between right and wrong (which is different for each child I would suppose), how could they even repent of their sins and be saved, if they didn't know they had sinned?

Maybe I am heartless but I have a valid question regarding this. Assume for whatever reason (this is a role play ) but assume that you / your wife was pregnant and you had an abortion. (BTW this is NOT an abortion post) Years come and go and finally you go to heaven. Assume for one minute that you see your "aborted" child Frank (we'll call him Frank). What would you say to him? So tell me about yourself...Frank says " well I have no expieriance or anything to speak about". Well thats the end of that conversation. Would it matter if Frank just ceases to exsist? Would you know the differance or care? Frank never was anything to you (I have never been in this situation so it may be heartless to say). So why would you look for him in heaven?

Just a thought. Maybe before a certain age it doesn't matter what happens to you so you cease to exsist. Any thoughts on this?

[Guest Bobtep23]

Sorry just thought of another thing...If you die before a certain age or age of understanding you automatically go to heaven. Wouldn't it then be wise for me to be an abortion doctor? Sure I would go the hell. But what about all the people I saved!

[Guest Calamity]

Until a child is old enough to realize the difference between right and wrong (which is different for each child I would suppose), how could they even repent of their sins and be saved, if they didn't know they had sinned?

Maybe I am heartless but I have a valid question regarding this. Assume for whatever reason (this is a role play ) but assume that you / your wife was pregnant and you had an abortion. (BTW this is NOT an abortion post) Years come and go and finally you go to heaven. Assume for one minute that you see your "aborted" child Frank (we'll call him Frank). What would you say to him? So tell me about yourself...Frank says " well I have no expieriance or anything to speak about". Well thats the end of that conversation. Would it matter if Frank just ceases to exsist? Would you know the differance or care? Frank never was anything to you (I have never been in this situation so it may be heartless to say). So why would you look for him in heaven?

Just a thought. Maybe before a certain age it doesn't matter what happens to you so you cease to exsist. Any thoughts on this?

Oh, yes, I have thoughts on this! It matters. God doesn't create life for no reason. Just because the baby is still in the womb, does not mean he is not important to God. Just because we can't see the baby yet, does not mean it's not a living human being.

Ps. 139

[13] For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

[14] I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

[15] My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

[16] Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

NIV version for vs. 16:

Psalm 139

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.

All the days ordained for me

were written in your book

before one of them came to be.

Does it sound like it matters to you? We have no right to kill an unborn child anymore than we have a right to murder an adult or a child who has been born.

Maybe Frank would say, "If you had not murdered me before I had a chance to be born, God had plans for me. I would've been an evangelist, or a missionary, or witnessed to thousands of people......"

Maybe I would say "Please forgive me for ending your life before you had a chance to live it."

For the record, I am a SHE.

[Guest Calamity]

Sorry just thought of another thing...If you die before a certain age or age of understanding you automatically go to heaven. Wouldn't it then be wise for me to be an abortion doctor? Sure I would go the hell. But what about all the people I saved!

First off, you would not go to hell for murder. You would only go to hell for not being saved.

Second, what you're saying is basically that "the end justifies the means", which most people know is not correct.

[Guest shadow2b]

-What a wonderful story Patsy. And what a treasure of a "grandpa" name, Gary! I loved that the most. There's nothing greater than a grandpa that has a "sweet" grandpa name! It shows a man who is sweet and kind in heart. It has to soften the heart at the sound I'm sure. That touched and impressed me shadow.

-wowwww--MAN-OH-MAN--I know this is late in posting a reply Suzanne-but I

-just "found" this thread & boy do I apologize for taking SOooooo long to reply--

-What a very humbling post---thank you for such"sweet & kind" words--softens the

-heart??LORD I pray it does,all tho I fear I fail miserably,but I do cherish my three

-beautiful grand-daughters- & one very long-haired hip-hop beautiful -grandson....

-IT does get to be kinda funny when a six-foot tall-17year old grandson comes in

-looks DOWN pats you on the head picks you up off the floor in a bear-hug & says-

-heyy BABY how ya doin?? - :hug: :hug: PRAISE THE LORD FOR GRAND-KIDS

-even if they're taller than you-- :sweating: :hug:

[Guest Bobtep23]

Maybe Frank would say, "If you had not murdered me before I had a chance to be born, God had plans for me. I would've been an evangelist, or a missionary, or witnessed to thousands of people......"

I think you are getting to close to Frank But hey he is a nice guy :oww:

These verses that you posted referance people talking after they were old. I will say that it is hard to accept that people could cease to exsist. Things that happen to you thoughout your life make you what you are now. Maybe the intent of that child (because trust me God knows) was to help to mold you to be a better person. (I say you not meaning calamity but anyone). I think you would agree that God knows Frank is going to be aborted long before it ever happens. Thus Frank could not say I could have been a missionary or anything because he couldn't have been. From day 1 he was going to get aborted. I have never had an abortion which is good since I'm a guy...but I have never gotten someone pregnant..(that makes more sense). So I'm not in that position or have feelings so strong one way or the other. Do you know of/or can you find any bible versus representing people who go to heaven due to lack of knowledge? I don't recall anything referanceing that but I could be wrong.