Debate review

[methinkshe]

The attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture coming from the "egalitarians" was about as compelling and convincing (and using many of the familiar techniques) as those of the homosexual lobby, who also attempt to distort Scripture to promote false teaching.

At the last count, there is no winning or losing, there is only the blood of Jesus. Thank Jesus that it covers ALL our iniquities, whether they are intentional, unintentional, or otherwise. I'm sure there are many things that I have read in the Bible that I have misunderstood or only half understood. What I do know is that God knows that the "inclination of my heart" is towards Him. And I am convinced that He will honour that inclination, however much I may misinterpret or misunderstand His Word. He knows my heart is FOR Him - and that's enough - even if I am just a little child in my understanding and comprehension of Scripture. Oh, how I love the Lord! How I love that He IS truth, and that we can trust His Word, even though we may not always comprehend it.

In Jesus,

Ruth

[Guest]

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

1 Peter 5:8

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Ephesians 5:19

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Ephesians 4:29-32

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Psalms 133:1

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25

Love, Your Brother Joe

[LynD]

The attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture coming from the "egalitarians" was about as compelling and convincing (and using many of the familiar techniques) as those of the homosexual lobby, who also attempt to distort Scripture to promote false teaching.

Wow, thats merciful and loving. Not. Must be nice to be so perfect and right all the time that you can equate your brothers and sisters in the Lord with homosexuals. Some on these boards have truly fogotten what love means.

[Neopatriarch]

The attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture coming from the "egalitarians" was about as compelling and convincing (and using many of the familiar techniques) as those of the homosexual lobby, who also attempt to distort Scripture to promote false teaching.

Wow, thats merciful and loving. Not. Must be nice to be so perfect and right all the time that you can equate your brothers and sisters in the Lord with homosexuals. Some on these boards have truly fogotten what love means.

Hmm. I didn't read minnow this way. He was talking specifically about egalitarian attacks on the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture, not the egalitarians themselves. Speaking of the egalitarians, and probably most other people on this board, do we really know whether they are brothers and sisters in the Lord? I don't know if we should just assume that because they are posting in a Christian forum here on Worthy Boards.

Paul says in Acts 20:

28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. 29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Indeed 2 John 2:9-11 says:

9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

If someone is teaching a doctrine that is a wrong as egalitarianism is, I'm reluctant to pretend the debate is an intramural one. We are confronting a philosophy that comes not from the bible, but from the world. So, failing to confront egalitarians in the church is unloving and unmerciful. Now if you are concerned about how "nice" we are being, well, we haven't always been so "nice". Jesus himself wasn't always "nice" either (cf. John 2:15-17).

Finally, none of us is perfect. Therefore, no one has a right to confront anyone else when they are wrong.

-Neopatriarch

[EricH]

Probably a more meaningful question would be whcih position is most biblical. People have seen the positions delineated in the thread. Now thay need to look to scripture and decide for themselves.

[Smalcald]

I agree Eric,

I think we have had some very consistent and clear versus quoted. Also please read the entire book in which a verse was used it really helps. But the bible is as usual pretty clear, and we must all face what it says.

Also look at the consistency throughout scripture, from one to the next. I don't like just looking at one single verse and using that to build any sort of complete doctrine about a sensitive topic such as this. But when we have a consistent theme going, as I think we do here, we must not ignore it.

[OopsMartin]

Probably a more meaningful question would be whcih position is most biblical. People have seen the positions delineated in the thread. Now thay need to look to scripture and decide for themselves.

In order to even begin to answer that question one would need to actually have available thorough outlines of the doctrinal positions of egalitarian-complementarians and patriarchal-complementarians. And to do so would require the utmost respectful patience of all sides. It is unlikely that a group that leans one direction will ever allow anyone who leans in the other direction full scholarly freedom to completely present the opposing view. I've not seen it happen. It's not a short subject. One thread does no justice to either viewpoint.

Plus there are the problems of name calling. Biblical Egalitarians don't generally call themselves feminists. Thus to equate Biblical egalitarian-complementarians with the secular world of modern day feminists is disingenuous at best and reveals a possible ulterior motive that is not honoring to Christ.

So then the question is, is the thread about feminism being anti-Christ or is it about calling Christian egalitarian-complementarians anti-Christ by falsely associating them with modern secular feminism which often is anti-Christ.

[EricH]

In order to even begin to answer that question one would need to actually have available thorough outlines of the doctrinal positions of egalitarian-complementarians and patriarchal-complementarians. And to do so would require the utmost respectful patience of all sides. It is unlikely that a group that leans one direction will ever allow anyone who leans in the other direction full scholarly freedom to completely present the opposing view. I've not seen it happen. It's not a short subject. One thread does no justice to either viewpoint.

This would imply that in order for a person to decide upon the validity of any theological position, they would need to understand all of the details (at least in outline form) of not only the position in question, but of all opposing theologies. It is true that no position regarding the women's issue got a complete hearing in the thread. But several things are observable:

1. How those who have landed where they are handle scripture.

2. How they view the core issues

3. The main biblical reasons they hold the position they do.

From that information alone, one could make an educated decision regarding the relative biblical merit of the positions. Granted, one would need to fish through all of the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" on both sides, but I don't thing the approach you suggest is necessary to arrive at preliminary conclusions as to the relative biblical merit of each position.

That being said, I think that it would benefit all of us to be excellent students and expore what all position hold. This will serve not only to challenge the positions we have taken, but also to make us familiar with the arguments we are likely to encounter. That is where the approach you are recommending holds much merit.

[OopsMartin]

In order to even begin to answer that question one would need to actually have available thorough outlines of the doctrinal positions of egalitarian-complementarians and patriarchal-complementarians. And to do so would require the utmost respectful patience of all sides. It is unlikely that a group that leans one direction will ever allow anyone who leans in the other direction full scholarly freedom to completely present the opposing view. I've not seen it happen. It's not a short subject. One thread does no justice to either viewpoint.

This would imply that in order for a person to decide upon the validity of any theological position, they would need to understand all of the details (at least in outline form) of not only the position in question, but of all opposing theologies. It is true that no position regarding the women's issue got a complete hearing in the thread. But several things are observable:

1. How those who have landed where they are handle scripture.

2. How they view the core issues

3. The main biblical reasons they hold the position they do.

From that information alone, one could make an educated decision regarding the relative biblical merit of the positions. Granted, one would need to fish through all of the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" on both sides, but I don't thing the approach you suggest is necessary to arrive at preliminary conclusions as to the relative biblical merit of each position.

That being said, I think that it would benefit all of us to be excellent students and expore what all position hold. This will serve not only to challenge the positions we have taken, but also to make us familiar with the arguments we are likely to encounter. That is where the approach you are recommending holds much merit.

I disagree that "educated guesses" is a valid way to approach highly charged disagreements such as the issues of the relationships between men and women in church and home life. And thank for the last paragraph. That is what I believe God would have us to do with all Scripture....search and study.

But several things are observable:

1. How those who have landed where they are handle scripture.

2. How they view the core issues

3. The main biblical reasons they hold the position they do.

It is exactly because people think they can determine these questions from sparce discussion that the lack of real discussion takes place. I only know the primary reasons patriarchalists hold the positions they do and the core issues because I've read extensively on the subject. But I couldn't tell you exactly how each person who holds to that position does so without extensive discussion with them. So to assume that anyone can answer those questions about anyone participating in these excruciatingly short discussions here can only mean one is encouraging them to assume, and to assume negatively. And that does nothing for anyone.

[EricH]

I disagree that "educated guesses" is a valid way to approach highly charged disagreements such as the issues of the relationships between men and women in church and home life. And thank for the last paragraph. That is what I believe God would have us to do with all Scripture....search and study.

But several things are observable:

1. How those who have landed where they are handle scripture.

2. How they view the core issues

3. The main biblical reasons they hold the position they do.

It is exactly because people think they can determine these questions from sparce discussion that the lack of real discussion takes place. I only know the primary reasons patriarchalists hold the positions they do and the core issues because I've read extensively on the subject. But I couldn't tell you exactly how each person who holds to that position does so without extensive discussion with them. So to assume that anyone can answer those questions about anyone participating in these excruciatingly short discussions here can only mean one is encouraging them to assume, and to assume negatively. And that does nothing for anyone.

Thanks for your opinion