The Church Growth Hormone

[Marnie]

I attended one of his services, and what stuck out the most to me was him saying that "God took a risk in sending Jesus - God did not know what would happen." He went on to say that God is "irrational."

The man is a heretic and shouldn't, in my opinion, be used as a source of wisdom for any Bible believing believer.

Yeah, I heard that comment before; I hadn't realized it was Young that said it. I think it shows how careless believers in the main have become when they so easily follow man's teachings at the expense of the Bible. But then again, the NT makes it clear that in the last days, even the very elect will be deceived.

[Marnie]

And, oh, AK, about your article: a great big from Marnieland. You have got to get your stuff published, man.

[apothanein kerdos]

And, oh, AK, about your article: a great big from Marnieland. You have got to get your stuff published, man.

Working on it. I'm in contact with guys who have published "best sellers" in Christian thinking, and some are helping me along in my writing. Who knows when it'll actually get done though.

[Marnie]

And, oh, AK, about your article: a great big from Marnieland. You have got to get your stuff published, man.

Working on it. I'm in contact with guys who have published "best sellers" in Christian thinking, and some are helping me along in my writing. Who knows when it'll actually get done though.

Please don't tell me it's Rupert Murdoch.

[apothanein kerdos]

And, oh, AK, about your article: a great big from Marnieland. You have got to get your stuff published, man.

Working on it. I'm in contact with guys who have published "best sellers" in Christian thinking, and some are helping me along in my writing. Who knows when it'll actually get done though.

Please don't tell me it's Rupert Murdoch.

Far from it.

[Vickilynn]

Shame on you.

Shalom,

HEY! That's MY line!

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Marnie,

So, instead of addressing the issues in a gracious way, you'd rather denigrate the author? Hmmmm.

As for being deceived, the article you posted is pretty much there in my opinion. And if posting an article means that you "follow man's teachings at the expense of the Bible", what does that say about the fact that YOU posted an article? Are you "following that man's teachings at the expense of the Bible?" Works both ways, doesn't it?

These WORDS are true. Read below:

Each of those numbers represents a life that matters to God, and keeping a close watch on them is a way of holding ourselves accountable to the awesome responsibility we have been given in the local church. Baptisms, salvations, first-time visitors, small groups, volunteers

[Marnie]

Shame on you.

Shalom,

HEY! That's MY line!

Yikes! I'll give you credit immediately!

So, instead of addressing the issues in a gracious way, you'd rather denigrate the author? Hmmmm.

As for being deceived, the article you posted is pretty much there in my opinion. And if posting an article means that you "follow man's teachings at the expense of the Bible", what does that say about the fact that YOU posted an article? Are you "following that man's teachings at the expense of the Bible?" Works both ways, doesn't it?

See, he published his ideas, and therefore opened himself up for criticism. The idea that Ed Young has degenerated into heresy is most certainly NOT mine alone! His heresies ARE the issue!

I had to re-read your comment to get the gist of it. The article by Ray (the OP) was, I thought, an excellent "rebuttal" to the myriad of "church growth" and WOF articles that float around the 'net and appear in people's in boxes. Written from one who escaped it's clutches, I thought it was a brave account of one who really "saw the light" and owned up to a mistake. Ed Young, on the other hand, is still practicing sleight of hand and rubbing shoulders with false or at the very least, confused teachers. The very fact that so many can't tell the difference says a lot about our knowledge of Scripture and our ability to rightly divide the Word.

[apothanein kerdos]

As I stated, Ed Young works from a false premise. There is no need to take each of his points individually because it works from an entirely false premise that numbers equal success.

[Axxman]

Ak --

For the most part I agree with your 2nd section about pastors. I have no reason to put any basis on your 1st part about church size because frankly the subject is relative to experience. The ONLY people who complain about churches being too big and successful are those dead and dying churches that have no direction. I have NEVER met a pastor of a church that complained their church was too big...nor have I ever met a pastor who prayed God would keep his congregation small. The Lord adds to the church...not vice versa. The author of the original article of this thread is not a failure because he now teaches youth, and (presumably) has a small church. He fails because he refuses to realize that God can use ANY church he chooses. He condemned MY church because in his limited view of Christianity God only works with small numbers. His position is laughable.

In regards to your articles. They are well written, and I really liked the second article about pastoral attitudes. My only suggestion (if I may) is that I prefer the scripture references in place, rather than as footnotes. I was kind of puzzled by the lack of scriptural context throughout...until I got to the end. While I am happy to see that you did have scriptural context a person would have to go back and reference the article to apply the scripture. Hope that makes sense.

About Ed Young. I have no idea who he is, or what he represents. However, I read the posted article and in and of itself there is NOTHING in the article that makes claims about success is based on size. Quite the contrary actually. He makes the specific case that church size is determined by God and that churches who are smaller in size SHOULDN'T be concerned. The article was more or less pointing out (correctly) that people shouldn't become overly concerned about church size. Your opinion of the article was biased because of previous knowledge of Ed Young...I based my opinion of the article based on the actual words that were written.

Marnie said: And Axxman...Ray Baumann a failure? Shame on you. I guess our Lord would also be considered a failure, since most of His followers abandoned Him when His teachings got tough. And Peter and Paul must have been failures since they were jailbirds. For shame.

I said he "sounded" like a failure because of his attitude, and his reasoning. I have NO knowledge of the man personally, and he may be a completely fine fella...but he "sounds" like a failure based on that article. Its easy to decide God doesn't like BIG churches when you dedicate 8 years of ministry to it...and it doesn't pan out. My Pastor was hired when our church had 200 members. It is beyond insulting for Ray to act as though we only grew because we have a good praise band, and we started focusing on helping people.

Our Lord would have been a failure if the story of His ministry was "most of his followers abandoned Him when His teachings got tough." As you know, that is NOT the entire story, nor the central theme of His story. Our Lord, went on to great success, with literally millions of converts to His teachings. The same for Peter and Paul. There story would have undoubtably been far more brief in God's word if all they accomplished had been getting arrested a few times. As it turns out, Peter was the "rock" upon which Christ laid the foundations of Christianity...and Paul started churches all over the region. I would say they were pretty successful.