The Church Growth Hormone

[apothanein kerdos]

The ONLY people who complain about churches being too big and successful are those dead and dying churches that have no direction

Again, prove to me that numbers equate success.

What you said - no offense intended - is idiotic. You're saying that people that complain about people pursuing numbers only do so because they have "failed." For one, many of the people that complain about those who seek numbers as success have pastored major churches or attended them (Emir Caner, Paige Patterson, John Macarthur, Al Mohler, and many others).

No one is against bigger churches - what is being argued against is the pursuit of a bigger church and using any method available in order to achieve that number. There is nothing wrong in having a smaller church or a church that isn't growing in numbers. You cannot provide a single biblical reference that would show how this would be bad.

As I demonstrated, Jesus lost followers. By your own definition, He was a failure. You have yet to deal with this. You're working from a false premise, and honestly, I won't continue this discussion with you because you're rude and refuse to address the points. If you can change that, let's carry on the discussion. If not, don't bother responding.

Our Lord would have been a failure if the story of His ministry was "most of his followers abandoned Him when His teachings got tough." As you know, that is NOT the entire story, nor the central theme of His story.

The problem is, I gave scripture that states EXACTLY that - when His teaching became difficult, people abandoned Him.

[Marnie]

Oh Lord! I am most certainly NOT against big churches! Our church is growing, in fact. We started out with 35 and have passed 80. But our growth has been promulgated on the preaching of the Word. We don't have circuses, dance troupes or magic shows.

I can't add to what AK said regarding Young, but your notion that the church was founded upon Peter is not necessarily the only interpretation. I believe, as do many others, that it was Peter's confession Jesus was referencing. As far as we know, this was the very first time that Jesus was declared to be the "Christ."

[Vickilynn]

Shame on you.

Shalom,

HEY! That's MY line!

Yikes! I'll give you credit immediately!

Shalom Marnie,

Thanks!! (must be the Jewish upbringing!)

So, instead of addressing the issues in a gracious way, you'd rather denigrate the author? Hmmmm.

As for being deceived, the article you posted is pretty much there in my opinion. And if posting an article means that you "follow man's teachings at the expense of the Bible", what does that say about the fact that YOU posted an article? Are you "following that man's teachings at the expense of the Bible?" Works both ways, doesn't it?

See, he published his ideas, and therefore opened himself up for criticism. The idea that Ed Young has degenerated into heresy is most certainly NOT mine alone! His heresies ARE the issue!

[Vickilynn]

We don't have circuses, dance troupes or magic shows.

Shalom Marnie,

That doesn't make them wrong.

[Axxman]

Again, prove to me that numbers equate success.

Why would I try to prove that? I haven't made that point in the slightest. I've belonged to small churches all my life. My father has started churches all over the world and they ALWAYS start small. Some grow big, others stay small, some don't make it. I would NEVER be so shallow as to act as though a small church couldn't be successful. However, I wouldn't be so shallow as to assume that just cuz a church was big that it wasn't a Godly church...which is exactly what Ray Baumann said.

What you said - no offense intended - is idiotic. You're saying that people that complain about people pursuing numbers only do so because they have "failed." For one, many of the people that complain about those who seek numbers as success have pastored major churches or attended them (Emir Caner, Paige Patterson, John Macarthur, Al Mohler, and many others).

To my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong) but NONE of those men has ever bashed a large church for having a projector, or reaching out to the community, or having relevant messages to solve problems. Seriously, I can't believe you guys can just gloss over such idiotic "ingredients" that he refers to as "ugly." My point is that NOBODY in a thriiving church, regardless of size, wishes that it was smaller.

No one is against bigger churches - what is being argued against is the pursuit of a bigger church and using any method available in order to achieve that number. There is nothing wrong in having a smaller church or a church that isn't growing in numbers. You cannot provide a single biblical reference that would show how this would be bad.

Okay...now we are getting somewhere. At least we are agreeing that big churches aren't evil. Now, pardon me again if I'm wrong, but the guy writing the piece didn't just say "any method available." The guy made the insinuation that if your church doesn't have pews, an organ/piano combo, and three old ladies in the front row wearing a flower in their hat...then your church is misguided. Just in case you missed them lets review the "ugly ingredients"...

1. Man-centered theology... never saw a Christian church that taught this

2. Relevant messages that solve people

[Guest lovinghim4ever]

It doesn't matter to God how big or how small a congregation is.

All that really matters to Him is the condition and motive of our heart.

"The Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance,

but the Lord looks at the heart" (1 Samuel 16:7).

[EricH]

We are getting reports on this thread. As I read through it, one thing seems very evident. Folks have a need to attack those with whom they disagree. Even if someone is mistaken in one area of doctrine, it does not automatically make everthing they say untrue. I wish people could stick to the issues, rather than people, but I guess they just can't.

Closed