Cold or Hot

[undone]

I was under the impresson that the cold, lukewarm, and the hot, the goats and the lambs, the wheat and chaff, and the good fish and bad fish was referring to false and true converts. False converts meaning people in the church who, for whatever reason, think that they are Christians, but were never truly converted. This could be because they never truly repented, or didn't understand the salvation message in some way, or prayed to a false image of God, ...etc.

The problem with being lukewarm is that you think you are converted when in reality you are not. This is scary because you may never come to the realization that you need to be truly converted and as a result, die in your sins. You may also give up on the church thinking that salvation is false because you never experienced any transformation - have we not seen a few of these people here on Worthy arguing against belief?

That's why it so important not to rush and/or pressure someone into making a decision. They may do so only to satisify you and as a result, you have a false convert. That person is potentially worse off than he/she began for the reasons I described before.

I've never heard the cold and hot water explanations before now. Not saying their wrong and I'm right but you have to wonder why that is. I've listened to and read alot, and I mean alot of teachings on radio, books, at church, on TV, and online and this the first time it's been mentioned.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh,

Congratulations Shilo, once again you have made the Scriptures of none efect. You are extremely good at this, I have to admit. Is Jesus telling the parasites to buy of Him Gold tried in the fire, which is what makes them hot? Is he telling the parasites to put on white robes, and to annoint their eyes with eyesalve? Is he going to vomit the parasites out of His mouth? Do you think that they read the Scriptures?

You have got to be kidding. (edited by moderator) I did not say that Jesus is talking to parasites. (edited by moderator). What I said was that Jesus is telling the Laodecians that he was comparing their spiritual deadness to the disease causing parasites. (edited by moderator)

I am an avid reader, but it is obvious that you and I read different sources. You prefer the wisdom of man and interpretations of 'lukewarm' theologians, which I do not.

No you don't. You simply live under the delusion that you hear from the Holy Spirit, and therefore, everything you say is 100% correct and is 100% Bible, and that anyone who disagrees with you is disagreeing with God. Do you want to rehash that all over again?

You claim not to listen to men, but yet you want us to accept your views as truth. You want the right to air your views and for your voice to be heard on an issue, but you deem yourself too "spiritual" to listen to anyone else. That drips of a self-inflated sense your value to this debate. If it is wrong to listen or gain spiritual insight from men, then why should we listen to you? Why do you tempt us to cause us to do the very thing you would not do?

I guess this cold water didn't have any parasites, or were they just cold parasites.

No, cold water does not carry the parasites, Pilgrim. Parasites lay their eggs in lukewarm water. It provides the ideal environment for their eggs to incubate and hatch. Jesus is drawing from that simply scientific reality, known even to ancient people.

Jesus says that He wished they, the professed believers, not the water was cold or hot.

Yes, I understand that. The problem is that if "cold" means "dead," then that statement by Jesus makes no sense. It would make no sense for Jesus to say that spiritual deadness would be as acceptable or desirable a state as being spiritually alive. Nowhere is "cold" defined as "spiritually dead." You are reading OUR 21st century metaphorical use of the term into the Bible. In our day, "cold" is often used to describe someone who is cruel, apathetic, unloving. We use terms like "cold-hearted" or "cold shoulder." We often refer to someone who was unwelcome in a meeting as having received a "cool reception." That is how WE talk.

The idea of "cold" and "hot" referring to spiritual conditions is NEVER developed in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible are "hot" and "cold" used in that way.

If you are wrong, which you never even seem to consider, you have alot of people who hang on your every word and seem to think that you are infallible. That can be a very dangerous situation.

The only who has ever come close to claiming infallibility is you. I have been completely willing to entertain the possibility that I am wrong. I have challenged more than one person in this thread to present the evidence from both corroborating Scripture, and from history that clearly demonstrates that my understanding of the Rev. 3:15,16 is incorrect. Heretofore, no evidence has been offered. No one here claims that I am infallible, and by you making that accusation, you insult their intelligence, as well as bear false witness against them.

Either copy and paste where anyone has implied or indicated that they consider me "infallible" or retract that false witness, and apologize publicly to them for your sin against them and violating one of the Ten Commandments. You will be held to that, BTW. I will continue to remind you of your obligation.

Have you ever thought of asking Jesus to show what He means instead of just taking the opinions of comentaries and worldly wise theologians who themselves are overwhelmingly 'lukewarm'?

Who made you a competent judge on the spirituality of people you have most likely never met??? How do you know who is "lukewarm" and who is not??

Jesus gave gifts to the Body of Christ. He gave 5 ministry gifts, and among those gifts are teachers. God anoints both men and women to teach His Word. God does not remove the human conduit through which He communicates truth to us. Some of us possess the humility to learn from others who are wiser than we are. Some of us recognize that we don't corner the market on the Bible, and are able to learn from God's anointed teachers, which He gave us. By denigrating and casting disparagements upon these teachers, you are insulting the Lord who provided them to us.

[nebula]

Nebula,

It is not the open unbelievers Jesus is talking to. The cold and lukewarm have not a living faith, but a dead faith, head faith, not heart faith. . . the cold, who just go through the motions

Pilgrim, I ask you again to please show me any Scriptural verification for "cold" having this meaning you assigned to it. By this definition, the "cold" are living in sin. Why would Jesus say, "I would rather you were cold..." if it is just replacing one sin with another?

When He addresses churches, he is not addressing Athiests, Pagans and open sinners.

I agree with this. However, the OP considered this Luciferian to be "cold", and used this Scripture to argue that the Luciferian (non-believer) was in a better place than the lukewarm Christian. I did not realize your understanding was different, and I apologize.

the cold, who just go through the motions, the 'lukewarm' who are deceived by their 'loveless' forms of religion

So, by your understanding of cold, why would Jesus prefer "cold" sin over "lukewarm" sin?

For that matter, I do not see any significant difference between this definition of "cold" and "lukewarm" - they are both in sin, both in need of repentance - and yet you insist that Jesus would prefer us to "go through the motions"? Won't those who "go through the motions" be judged as well? So why would Jesus prefer the church to be this?

Jesus spews out all those who don't repent and buy of Him.

Yes, and these are those that are lukewarm - not cold.

Edited June 18, 2007 by nebula

[nebula]

I've never heard the cold and hot water explanations before now. Not saying their wrong and I'm right but you have to wonder why that is. I've listened to and read alot, and I mean alot of teachings on radio, books, at church, on TV, and online and this the first time it's been mentioned.

Here, undone -

Check out this web page: http://www.bibleplaces.com/laodicea.htm

It gives a brief description with pictures so you can see what is being talked about.

Aqueduct

The water that was piped to Laodicea was rich with calcium which over time would cause the pipes to clog. The engineers designed the aqueduct with vents covered with stones that could be removed periodically for cleaning.

Jesus' condemnation of the city's church for lukewarmness rebukes not their lack of fervor but their lack of effectiveness.

This web page goes into even more detail - http://eis.net.au/~paulh/rn107lla.htm - it explains the other symbolisms Jesus used as well.

The mineral springs outside Laodicea rose at their source boiling hot. But by the time they had flowed down the aqueduct to the town, they were luke-warm and nauseous. They were not cold enough to be refreshing in that hot climate. There was neither refreshment for parched men, nor heat enough to cure and disinfect their sicknesses.

[Pilgrim7]

Shiloh,

At least dealing with you is not boring.

You wrote:

You have got to be kidding. (edited by moderator) I did not say that Jesus is talking to parasites. (edited by moderator). What I said was that Jesus is telling the Laodecians that he was comparing their spiritual deadness to the disease causing parasites. (edited by moderator)

Maybe you could PM me the unedited version. I am really curious what you said. Self control comes from Jesus. Its a free gift, all you have to do is ask. Jesus is not comparing their Spiritual deadness to Parasites or disease that comes from them, or even to water. Now there is a stretch. Did He tell you that? That is not what He said. First of all, he did not compare them to anyone or anything, but said exactly what He meant, that their Spiritual condition was 'lukewarm'. Then He proceeded to tell them that it would be better if they were cold or hot. Contextually this is speaking about 'two other spiritual conditions'. They are spiritually 'lukewarm', they are in delusion. Jesus says it would be better if they were 'spiritually cold' or 'spiritually hot'. It doesn't say that He thinks 'spiritually cold' is good or something He prefers, just that it is better than 'lukewarm'.

The 'lukewarm' are not dead, they are 'lukewarm'. They have works, they have a certain zeal, thy sing and worship and praise, but they lack all the qualities of a 'true christian'. They have a 'head faith' but not the 'heart faith' that 'works by love', thus they are 'lukewarm'. Since the 'lukewarm' are in delusion, 'spiritually cold' would be better, for at least they are not in delusion, they don't think that they have God by the tail. I love the Scriptures because even a child can understand. Jesus didn't write them so that it would take 'worldly wise men' to understand and interpret them for us. That is a RCC concept. Even a child can understand through the Holy Spirit.

Yes He has teachers, but they to are led by the Holy Spirit. Jesus has warned us many times though about false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing.

You wrote:

No you don't. You simply live under the delusion that you hear from the Holy Spirit, and therefore, everything you say is 100% correct and is 100% Bible, and that anyone who disagrees with you is disagreeing with God. Do you want to rehash that all over again?

Here again, it is you, my friend that live under delusion. You presume you can take the words of Jesus make them say something totally different, just because you read some religious teacher's hair brained idea. If Jesus was talking about parasites, he would have mentioned parasites. Jesus did not try to hide His meaning so only clever idealogues could interpret it and then pass it on to us neophytes. It is the Scriptures I share, their plain meaning, without clever twisting and introducing any things that Jesus never mentioned. It is the plain meaning of Scripture that you disagree with.

You wrote:

No, cold water does not carry the parasites, Pilgrim. Parasites lay their eggs in lukewarm water. It provides the ideal environment for their eggs to incubate and hatch. Jesus is drawing from that simply scientific reality, known even to ancient people.

Thank you for the Biology lesson. Jesus must have forgotten to tell us that he was drawing from Biology even though He doesn't mention water at all. If he wanted us to learn biology from this, he would have at least mentioned something related to Biology.

You wrote:

The idea of "cold" and "hot" referring to spiritual conditions is NEVER developed in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible are "hot" and "cold" used in that way.

It is used that way here. It is such a even a child can understand it. One need no degree in theology to understand what the Lord is saying here. All of Scripture develops this concept, it just doesn't necessarily use the words cold or hot. This is not a new concept, but one that has been understood throughout time. Other words are used to develop the concept, wheat and tares, sheep and goats, those who keep God's commandments and those who don't, Those who keep and teach the commandments are called great in the kingdom, those who break them and teach others to do the same, shall be called least. I believe that last one is your favorite verses. Maybe you could interpret for me. what do you think that it means to be called least in the kingdom.

You wrote:

The only who has ever come close to claiming infallibility is you. I have been completely willing to entertain the possibility that I am wrong.

Well here's your chance brother.

You wrote:

Either copy and paste where anyone has implied or indicated that they consider me "infallible" or retract that false witness, and apologize publicly to them for your sin against them and violating one of the Ten Commandments. You will be held to that, BTW. I will continue to remind you of your obligation.

Interesting that you should bring up the Ten Commandments. I believe that you teach others that it is OK to violate of one of them. In fact you tried to convince me. Get your facts straight. I didn't say that they think your infallible, but said that you seem to think you are. The frightening thing is that they look to you to answer all their questions and deal with people that they can't. As I said that is dangerous. The Holy Spirit is the one who leads into all truth.

I have never even mentioned infallibility regarding myself. I have just shared what the Holy Spirit has shown me. You see Scripture was given by revelation of the Holy Spirit and requires revelation by the same Spirit to understand. The wisdom of man and religious commentaries led the 'majority of the chosen people' to reject their God and Saviour and to consent to 'crucify him'. So much for the religious wisdom of man.

You wrote:

By denigrating and casting disparagements upon these teachers, you are insulting the Lord who provided them to us.

I have listened to many teachers, but I always take what I hear to the Holy Spirit who leads into all truth for His teaching on whatever issue I hear, whether it was from Him or from another Spirit. He never fails to answer. Any one can and are directed to do the same. Teachers of God teach the Bible as it reads, they don't twist and spin, making it say things that are not in the text. These are 'false teachers' and teach the doctrines of men. They are the ones who insult Jesus.

Now I will challenge you, show me one text in the Bible where Jesus mentions 'parasites' in connection with spiritual condition. I'm looking for corroborating Scripture, just as you demand of me, where Jesus uses parasites to describe spiritual condition. Touche!

As I said, never a boring moment with you my friend.

God Bless,

Dennis

[undone]

Nebula,

Thanks for the update with the link.

I know I'm coming in late on this, but with regards to the persons who came up with this translation of this message, why did they feel it necessary to translate it differently than the traditionally understood meaning? It seems they may have felt the need to reconcile the fact Jesus said He wished they were either cold OR hot. Thus making it difficult to explain why, right?

[Guest shiloh357]

Maybe you could PM me the unedited version. I am really curious what you said.

Yeah, I am sure you would love to think that I lost my temper, but I didn't. Since the moderators edited out those remarks, I would be in violation of board policy to either repost them to you in private or on the board. The moderator's decision is final. I did not say anything that was so bad, nor anything that was untrue, or that I could not substantiate, but I submit to the moderator's decision.

Jesus is not comparing their Spiritual deadness to Parasites or disease that comes from them, or even to water. Now there is a stretch. Did He tell you that? That is not what He said. First of all, he did not compare them to anyone or anything, but said exactly what He meant, that their Spiritual condition was 'lukewarm'. Then He proceeded to tell them that it would be better if they were cold or hot. Contextually this is speaking about 'two other spiritual conditions'. They are spiritually 'lukewarm', they are in delusion. Jesus says it would be better if they were 'spiritually cold' or 'spiritually hot'. It doesn't say that He thinks 'spiritually cold' is good or something He prefers, just that it is better than 'lukewarm'.

The problem is that if "cold" means "spiritually dead" then Jesus would not call it "better" than being lukewarm. It would not be better. Given the scathing rebuke they recieved, it is hard to imagine that being altogether spiritually dead would be better, in fact it would be worse, Therefore, "cold" cannot mean "spiritually dead" and it is nowhere offered as meaning such.

The 'lukewarm' are not dead, they are 'lukewarm'.

Which makes my point. If "cold" = dead, then it would be worse, not better than being lukewarm.

Here again, it is you, my friend that live under delusion. You presume you can take the words of Jesus make them say something totally different, just because you read some religious teacher's hair brained idea. If Jesus was talking about parasites, he would have mentioned parasites. Jesus did not try to hide His meaning so only clever idealogues could interpret it and then pass it on to us neophytes. It is the Scriptures I share, their plain meaning, without clever twisting and introducing any things that Jesus never mentioned. It is the plain meaning of Scripture that you disagree with.

NO, it is YOU I disagree with. Again, you are on this roll about how your take on the Bible is pure and anyone that sees it otherwise is corrupted by man.

And no, Jesus would not have had to mention parasites because to the original audience it would have been common knowledge, and they would have understood exactly why the lukewarm water was sickening.

If I write a letter to a friend and mention that in November I am going to St Louis to see a Rams' game, I don't need to explain to him that I am talking about football game. I certainly don't need to describe what a football game is. It would be common knowledge that given the time of year, and the common knowledge that the Rams are a football team, I am going to see a football game.

The same applies here. Jesus' audience would have been familiar with the sickening properties of their lukewarm water and no explanation is necessary.

QUOTE

Either copy and paste where anyone has implied or indicated that they consider me "infallible" or retract that false witness, and apologize publicly to them for your sin against them and violating one of the Ten Commandments. You will be held to that, BTW. I will continue to remind you of your obligation.

Interesting that you should bring up the Ten Commandments. I believe that you teach others that it is OK to violate of one of them. In fact you tried to convince me. Get your facts straight. I didn't say that they think your infallible, but said that you seem to think you are.

No that is not what you said. So much for getting the facts straight. Here is what you said:

If you are wrong, which you never even seem to consider, you have alot of people who hang on your every word and seem to think that you are infallible. That can be a very dangerous situation. Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned, not intellectually discerned.

You clearly stated that you feel they think I am infallible. Again, you have insulted their intelligence, and instead of bearing false witness against them, you need to publicly retract the above, and publicly apologize to them for breaking one of the Ten Commandments.

The frightening thing is that they look to you to answer all their questions and deal with people that they can't. As I said that is dangerous. The Holy Spirit is the one who leads into all truth.

It is people like you who are dangerous, who think that their views are perfect and pure, and anyone who rejects your words rejects the Bible. I, on other hand do not make such claims. I simply present the facts as I see them, and anyone who wants to believe otherwise is free to. I have never set my words up a pure.

I have already in times past proven that you lack a great deal of skill in handling the Bible. The study of Scripture is as much an intellectual excercize as it is a spiritual one. God does not circumvent the mind in order to communicate the truths of His Word.

[nebula]

Nebula,

Thanks for the update with the link.

I know I'm coming in late on this, but with regards to the persons who came up with this translation of this message, why did they feel it necessary to translate it differently than the traditionally understood meaning? It seems they may have felt the need to reconcile the fact Jesus said He wished they were either cold OR hot. Thus making it difficult to explain why, right?

Hey -

The translation never changed. What changed was the interpretation. They felt it necessary to change the interpretation because they realized they had been interpreting the passage wrong. I find reading the "cold or hot" as allusions to the water situation make much more sense - viewing both cold and hot as good things - than to view cold as another version of sin. It also doesn't contradict any other Scriptures this way.

To interpret the passage to say that Jesus would prefer them to be guilty of "sin A" over "sin B" has no justification in Scripture.

[nebula]

if you dont mind as well as the rest who read this can we agree on this prayer.

Father God, we are Your children. We look to You for all things. More times then not we are not one in Your thought. Father we desire to be one in this. Lord, bring us clarity of Your Word. Not for our sakes but that You may be glorfied. We look to You concerning this matter. We know nothing, lead us into Your truth.

In Jesus Name

Amen.

Amen!

And thank-you, ruck1b!

[exrockstar]

if you dont mind as well as the rest who read this can we agree on this prayer.

Father God, we are Your children. We look to You for all things. More times then not we are not one in Your thought. Father we desire to be one in this. Lord, bring us clarity of Your Word. Not for our sakes but that You may be glorfied. We look to You concerning this matter. We know nothing, lead us into Your truth.

In Jesus Name

Amen.

Amen!

And thank-you, ruck1b!

double amen.