Why Can't Man Forgive?

[Adstar]

Hello WIP  

I don't know if I agree with him or not. I know I want to sometimes. My question is, though - by harboring all that ill will against someone (because I am "allowed" to), isn't it only harming me? Isn't it in my best interests to forgive, because not forgiving causes me to sin?

We are not supposed to harbor all that ill will against someone W.I.P. Once you have placed their judgment into the hands of YAHWEH you are supposed to wash your hands of the whole situation. When one keeps brooding about it one does indeed only hurt oneself you are right. We must give it all to Him. Our feelings, and know that He will deal with it all Justly. Giving it over to God is not the same a forgiving the other, but it has the same effect

Hope I have put my thoughts forward clear enough W.I.P

lotzalove to you

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: Once we have done this given it all to God it may come to pass that the offender may see the error of what they have done to you and come to you seeking forgiveness. If they do then it will be far easier to give forgiveness to the offender for you won't have to deal with those ill feelings. All you will feel is joy for the other that they has seen the error of their ways :thumb:

[Work in Progress]

I understand, Adstar. I think, though, that It is better for me to believe that we are commanded to forgive whether they ask or not. (I know we can't pick and choose what we believe, but on this one I'm going to. )Because not forgiving, yet still placing it in God's hands to deal with takes way more maturity than I am capable of at this time. That is awesome that you can do that, Adstar, and I really admire that!

But I am a major grudge holder, and If I believe that the Scripture says I needn't forgive if they don't ask, I KNOW I will harbor. Big time.

For instance, there is a customer where I work who treats me like garbage. For some imagined slight, she verbally abuses me and is very nasty. (I am a bank teller and I asked my head teller if I should put a hold on a large personal check she was depositing. That "offended" her and she is nasty to me now all the time)

Adstar, I can not tell you how I want to tell that woman off and tell her what I think of her. She comes in several times a week and the sight of her boils up some ugly stuff in me. It is only through major prayer and the 'knowledge' that I am required to  forgive her that I can smile and say "Have a nice day". I hate to do it, but I am trusting God that He will reward me and take care of her. If I knew I didn't have to forgive her for being such a witch, I'd go off on her. Badly.

Dumb? Probably. Sure, I've been treated worse by people that really mattered in my life. I'm just trying to give you an example right now, to explain my thoughts. Did it make any sense?

I did think that forgiving was the same as not holding a grudge. I didn't realize that you could not hold a grudge, yet not forgive also.

I'll let you know when I'm more mature and can handle that, then I'll be asking you for some pointers.  

[Adstar]

Hello W.I.P my loving Sister

But I am a major grudge holder, and If I believe that the Scripture says I needn't forgive if they don't ask, I KNOW I will harbor. Big time.

I look back to my former days and I confess I must have held a few world records for the number of grudges and the time I would carry them. I would cut of my own nose to spite my face, I am glad I accepted the Messiah, I have no doubt that I would have died with some stress induced cancer by now if I had not.

For instance, there is a customer where I work who treats me like garbage. For some imagined slight, she verbally abuses me and is very nasty. (I am a bank teller and I asked my head teller if I should put a hold on a large personal check she was depositing. That "offended" her and she is nasty to me now all the time)

I remember a similar thing happened to me before I accepted the Messiah, but from the other side of the counter. I used to ride a push bike around the city of Newcastle on a Saturday to keep myself fit half way through the ride I would stop at a smorgasbord restaurant and have a meal before continuing on to home. Well I never wore fancy clothes when I rode and the restaurant was not what you would call a fancy one so it did not matter that much to me, well on this particular occasion I had stopped for a meal paid at the counter after ordering my meal and went to the table to wait for the dish to be delivered. My usual practice was to wait for the main meal to arrive then I would take it to the smorgasbord to get all the extra additions which was a part of the meal. But this time I was really hungry so I went and got some extras to chew on first. Well it seems that one of the employees saw me sitting down without a main meal and eating a plate of salad and stuff from the smorgasbord looked at how I was dressed and put one and one together and made her mind up that I was some kind of bum off the street coming into the restaurant stealing a free meal. Well we shouldn't jump to conclusions should we. Poor girl came over to confront me in front of all the other guests, she never said anything nasty but the contempt was all over her face. Well there I was sitting in the middle of the restaurant with a waiter accusing me of being a thief with everyone sitting in the restaurant looking at me with "interesting" expressions.

If anyone has ever come close to killing someone with just a look it would probably be the look I gave that girl on that day. I couldn't say anything I said it all with my eyes. So there we where frozen in time until the Girl who had served me at the counter walked in back from the Girls room and defused the situation, Well she didn't actually defuse me she just cleared up the misunderstanding. I never did eat that meal and I never went back to that restaurant, I'm sure that girl still remembers me though. lol Maybe the woman that treats you like garbage believes that you thought she was a kind of bum by going to your head teller to ask to have a hold put on it. Maybe she feels that you by doing this you where judging her to be a thief?

Adstar, I can not tell you how I want to tell that woman off and tell her what I think of her. She comes in several times a week and the sight of her boils up some ugly stuff in me. It is only through major prayer and the 'knowledge' that I am required to  forgive her that I can smile and say "Have a nice day". I hate to do it, but I am trusting God that He will reward me and take care of her. If I knew I didn't have to forgive her for being such a witch, I'd go off on her. Badly.

You want to tell her off? You say "Have a nice day". but hate to do it. How can you say that you have forgiven her? Have you? Or are you just turning your cheek to her? If you use my method those nasty words would just pass through you and go directly to the Lord, irrespective of you forgiving or not you are still being tempted in your heart to tell her off so every day she comes in to give you some nasty attitude what fruit does she cause to well up un your heart? Something to think about W.I.P

Dumb? Probably. Sure, I've been treated worse by people that really mattered in my life. I'm just trying to give you an example right now, to explain my thoughts. Did it make any sense?

No not Dumb Just human W.I.P you did make sense I know all the feelings you described it

[Work in Progress]

How can you say that you have forgiven her?

Well, I didn't, really. I said that I know that I am required to forgive her. And what I do is tell God that I forgive her. I tell myself that I forgive her. I do not feel like I've forgiven her, but I learned very early in my Christian walk to NEVER rely on feelings, but to always ACT first, and the feelings will come. I have lived that and I know without a doubt it is the truth. This just happened a two weeks ago, brother, cut me a break. LOL  

So, in that sense, yes I forgive her. I am trusting God that the day will come that I am happy to see her walk in the door. (oh boy, that seems impossible, but I'm trusting.) Who knows? She may even warm up as my plastered on smile becomes warmer, right?  

I confess that this is baby stuff that a 7 year old Christian should not be dealing with. Bear with me. Anger is the last thing still gripping me and the thorn in my side. Believe me, this is the new-and-improved model. It was a lot worse. A lot. 30 years of baggage is not undone overnight. (or even in 7 years. )

And, the ''honesty'' is because I will take any help I can get from a sincere brother/sister and to heck with looking like a dope. No one here is coming to dinner anyway, right?  

Seriously, Adstar, I feel ten times better and tomorrow I go back to work ( I only work part time) and I will go with a refreshed attitude. Christ died for her too.

Thanks again.

[Adstar]

Amen Sister  

One day at a time

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Work in Progress]

Hey, I was just coming back here to ask you what a "push bike" is??

[Catsmeow]

In turning from vengeance from the one that hurt you, you have placed him in the hands of God and the only way he will escape the coals of fire is to accept the Messiah and repent. For He said he will avenge us and He will.

Dear Adstar...pls know that the people who did evil to me were not lost souls but missionaries.

I'm telling you that some of the meanest people I've ever met were professing Christians. Yet, that's the whole point...isn't it?

Everyone needs a Savior.  Humanity is a mess. I have to be patient towards people - no matter how nasty they are. And yeah, WIP...it's hard.  :thumb:

Adstar...I do believe it is absolutely necessary and required of us to forgive - PERIOD!  there's no negotiating on this.  

Yes, it's hard. I understand. I was very badly wronged by professing Christians yet I am required to forgive.  

Look at what Jesus did? People mocked and tortured Him yet what did HE do?

"Father forgive them...they no not what they do?"

That's the example I am choosing to follow.       Cat

PS> Beyond that I believe we should pray for our enemies; sad to say...sometimes they can be other believers who still have dark hearts. All the more reason they need a Savior.

[traveller]

Cat, you and I think so much alike!  (are you a blonde too? )

I too think that man CAN forgive. The questions raised here though are when to forgive.  I personally think that someone should be forgiven even if they don't ask.

I was victimized when in my early teens. I went through hard years after and blamed him. I thought he ruined my life, when in fact, I had ruined my own life. I let the unforgiveness turn bitter and that turned into hate. Pure unadulterated hate. Years of my life down the tubes. And the fact is, he never knew how it affected me aside from the crime itself. He also never knew when I forgave him 'cause I have no idea what happened to him or where he is. Certainly he never asked for forgiveness. For your own health, your own well being, you have to forgive. Life is too short and there is too much of our Father's work to be done to hold onto grudges. It is really hard to get on with life when we're anchored down by unforgiveness. Anyway, JMO.

[Work in Progress]

Traveller, I am very sorry that happened to you. And very glad that you came to Christ and found healing.

[Adstar]

Hey W.I.P "push bike"? lol thats a bike with pedals you push down on to get it moving I'm sure you have them in the US kids ride on them usually I'm not sure what you call them there.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days