Personal Testimonies

[undone]

Then you lied, when you said you want to be judged by Bible.

You wanted to be judged solely by New Testament, were you not?

I will not apologise for YOUR mistake.

I have been consistent in stating exactly what I meant, and I have been consistent in stating Christians must be judged by the teachings of Christ. As for the rest of the Bible, simply accusing us slavery, genocide, etc. does not qualify as "judging us by the Bible." Again, the standard has been proposed ad nauseum, but you prefer to find a different standard than anything that would amount to fairness and objectivety since it would limit your ability to throw around scirptures about slavery in the irresponsible and illinformed manner that those of your ilk are used to doing.

Now, let me address your assertion.

NO. You do NOT deserve to be judged by Jesus. Not a single one of you measures up, and you admit that yourself.

With the same right I could demand to be judged by the God, in which image I`m ostencibly created by your faith.

I did not say to be judged by Jesus, but by the teachings of Jesus. No one can live up to the life that Jesus lived, because Jesus was sinless. My contention is that Jesus' teachings are the foundation of our faith, and the claims of Christ and the New Testament are the starting point for any assessment of the Christian faith. If you are not willing to operate by that standard, then you are disqualifed from holding any assessment that should be viewed as credible or trustworthy.

Judgement comes by the worst crime, not by the best achievement. This is the way your God judged - it`s ought to be good enough for you.

No, judgement is based upon a consistent, and reliable standard. Don't speak to me of God. You don't know Him, or anything about Him. You have nothing to say about God that can be taken seriously or viewed as credible. You have already proven your lack of trustworthyiness in debate. You do not possess the qualifications to instruct me about God.

Do not judge, lest you be judged. Thou hast judged me, by my worst sins you know - so thus will be done by me onto you.

Wha??? Are you on medication? What in the world does that mean?

Shiloh,

I'm afraid this person is incapable of stringing together a coherent argument. We have to consider the possibility that he's mentally challenged, deranged, or is simply toying with us to get a rise out of us. After reading this exchange, I'm electing to disengage with any further dialogue and simply ask everyone to pray for him. It doesn't appear there's anything we can do for him. It's unfortunate that a serious thread is polluted with these ramblings. Do you agree?

[Guest]

simply ask everyone to pray for him

[MorningGlory]

NO. You do NOT deserve to be judged by Jesus. Not a single one of you measures up, and you admit that yourself.

With the same right I could demand to be judged by the God, in which image I`m ostencibly created by your faith.

I will praise Jesus on what he`s done - he deserves that. And I will praise those of you, who does adhere to the ways of Jesus.

But I will not judge you by Jesus. Judgement comes by the worst crime, not by the best achievement. This is the way your God judged - it`s ought to be good enough for you.

For thou art all sinners. Yet some of you take pride in that, and tout that as their shield. Hide thy sins and renounce them, if you do not want to be judged by them.

Do not judge, lest you be judged. Thou hast judged me, by my worst sins you know - so thus will be done by me onto you.

You make no sense, Ishamael. You, as a nonbeliever, discussing Jesus, God, and the Bible? How can this be? Who debates nonexistent entities and fictional happenings? You're not qualified to discuss these things because you don't believe in or understand them.

[MorningGlory]

simply ask everyone to pray for him

Agreed. Ishamael is here, obviously, to try to tear down the faith. He/she needs all the prayer that can be mustered.

[Ishamael]

Sigh.

I see that eloquence is wasted upon you.

I`ll try to sum up what I say in curt and understandable manner, so there would be no disagreements on what did I suggested.

______________________

Judgement is not an act of accessing one`s worth. You are mixing it with praise.

Judgement is an act of accessing, how dangerous you are to those in question, and what must be done to render the harm you might inflict to minimum.

This is the staple of all human judgements - if you commit a crime, you are punished for it, to make sure you will not do that again.

This is the staple of God`s judgement - if you commit a sin, you are punished for it.

Why does God punishes? I would say, that he punishes to prevent sin in heaven. Everyone going to heaven must be disciplined harshly to break them from their sinful nature, and that is what God`s punishment is about.

Now, note please, that you must rebate for ALL your sins, no matter how much good you`ve done. All good will be accounted for in heaven, and God praises you for it. All bad has to be rebated in Purgatory or Hell, by God`s judgement.

______________________

And thus, judgement must account for all the worst things you had done.

This is not an accessment of your worth. It is an accessment of your evil.

______________________

I`ve seen many of evil things coming from christians.

Dare I to assume each christian adheres to the word of Jesus, when I saw many of them step over those words, as if they were illegible scribbles?

.....

That is the point of it all. That is the exact problem.

Let me ask you a question. Ask yourself - do YOU have faith, that I am a good person? Would you act upon assumption, that I am good person, despite the fact that you don`t agree with atheists?

No?

Then why do you demand ME to have faith in YOUR good intentions? Why do you demand me to have it despite all the hostility I`ve already encountered here?

Why? Why would I judge you as Jesus, while you judge me as beast?

______________________

Glory: I do not have to believe to discuss. I`m perfectly able of assuming hypotetically, that I might be wrong. That, by the way, is one of the key differences between christians and atheists. Atheists DO change their opinions in the face of irrefutable facts. Christians bend over backwards to explain the new facts into the old picture.

Edited June 19, 2007 by Ishamael

[Guest shiloh357]

I see that eloquence is wasted upon you.

I`ll try to sum up what I say in curt and understandable manner, so there would be no disagreements on what did I suggested.

What eloquence? There has been no eloquence coming from you. All that I see coming from you is a very convoluted, rather confused idea about what Christianity and a perverted, unfair, unreliable, and ignorant standard of measuring or assessing the claims of Christianity.

Judgement is not an act of accessing one`s worth. You are mixing it with praise.

1. The word is "assess," not "access." (again, so much for eloquence).

2. I did not say that Judgement is an act of assessing one's worth. I said that judgment is based upon a consistent, reliable standard. It is not a matter of assessing the worth of another person. It is a matter of having standard against which to measure the accuracy of a claim or assertion. If a person says, "I live by the teachings of Christ," then the teachings of Christ become the standard against which we measure that claim. We are not measuring the worth of the person, but the veracity of their claims.

3. Since Jesus is the founder of Christianity, it makes sense that everyone claiming to be a Christian would be measured against the founder of the faith. What you want to do is measure all of Christianity against a bunch of nuts. You want to lower ALL of Christianity to the level of the worst people you can find in order to give you a platform to malign the Christian faith and provide an excuse for your unbelief.

Why does God punishes? I would say, that he punishes to prevent sin in heaven. Everyone going to heaven must be disciplined harshly to break them from their sinful nature, and that is what God`s punishment is about.

See, this nonsense makes point. You don't even know why God punishes. Your answer is based upon your own subjective speculation, even though the Bible gives you the answer. You want to condemn and malign what you don't even know or understand. You don't know anything about God or the Bible but think you are qualified to stand in judgment and look down your snoot at us? What a joke.

The Bible teaches that God, first of all, withholds punishment and that His judgments fall only after He has given people a sufficient amount of time to repent. God's judgment are a last resort. The Bible teaches that it is not something God takes any pleasure in at all. The Bible says that God does takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. What God wants is repentance, judgment only falls after unrepentant man has exhausted God's patience.

Furthermore, the remedy for man's sinful nature has already been provided. It was provided 2,000 years ago when Jesus died on the cross. Jesus was judged for all of the sin of mankind. As a result, God is not holding man's sin against him. Jesus has paid the penalty for sin, and all man has to do is receive God's forgiveness and the remedy will be applied to the heart of every person who truly makes Jesus their Lord and Savior. God could have wiped the whole earth, but loved us too much to destroy us. Jesus took our place, and now God's justice has been satisfied.

Now, note please, that you must rebate for ALL your sins, no matter how much good you`ve done. All good will be accounted for in heaven, and God praises you for it. All bad has to be rebated in Purgatory or Hell, by God`s judgement.

Wrong. I have already passed from judgment into life. My sins are paid for. The only ones who have something worry about with respect to Hell and judgment are those who die without Christ. My sin was nailed to the cross. I no longer bear the weight of it. Jesus took my sin upon myself, and gave me His righteousness in exchange.

Again, you are trying speak about things you know nothing of.

Let me ask you a question. Ask yourself - do YOU have faith, that I am a good person?

No, because left to my own, I am not a good person. None of us are good people. That is why we need a Savior.

Then why do you demand ME to have faith in YOUR good intentions?

I have never demanded that of you. Honestly, you are trying to refute an argument that has not been made. You are assigning values to me that do not accurately represent my position. That is why I have no faith in your intentions. You have proven that you cannot be trusted in a debate.

Why? Why would I judge you as Jesus, while you judge me as beast?

Oh please... Stop being a drama queen.

I have simply assessed your lack of knowledge with respect to the Bible, Jesus and Christianity. I have cited several points where you are unwilling to apply a fair and objective standard. You are the one trying make us into "beasts" by comparing all of us to the KKK and Westboro. Your position in this entire debate reeks of nothing but ignorance and hypocrisy. You lost the debate a long time ago. You don't know what you are talking about and are unqualified to offer any kind of credible, intelligent, objective, or respectable assessment of Christianity or Christians.

[Ishamael]

Note how militant you are in your assertion, that I already lost. If I already did, why do you keep on arguing?

_________

Now, let`s take it for bona fide. You say - " I am not a good person."

Then how you can demand to be judged by Jesus, which IS good person?

How ironic it is, that you miss what I`ve said all along.

My problem with christianity is not that Jesus is not good. It`s that christians are not good. Which you just admitted.

So... What now? My problem is with christians and you specifically. You are not good persons. Simple as that. I have nothing against Jesus, I simply don`t agree with him completely. That does not prevents me from being friendly to him.

Something you seem to be sorely lacking.

_________

Of God and punishment...

If all your sins are already rebated and forgiven, what Hell is for?

If God forgave all sins, why would not everyone go to heaven?

I don`t buy it. If all sins are forgiven, there would be no idea of Supreme Judgement at the end. How can you be judged over something you`re already pardoned for?

Pick something. Let`s suppose that God exists... Either Jesus forgave everyone, and you and me both go to heaven in the end, either he did not... And the court awaits us all.

[Guest shiloh357]

Now, let`s take it for bona fide. You say - " I am not a good person."

Then how you can demand to be judged by Jesus, which IS good person?

You don't understand. I said that if you want to make accurate assessment then Jesus and His teachings are the only reliable, fair, objective and consistent standard that exists to be judged against. It is precisely because Jesus is good, that we can see against him where don't measure up. Only a consistent, and perfect standard accurately reveals our imperfections and flaws. Using a flawed standard or a standard that changes all the time, makes it impossible to get an accurate idea of what areas of my life need improvement.

How ironic it is, that you miss what I`ve said all along.

Uh, "ironic?" I don't see any "irony" in this at all.

My problem with christianity is not that Jesus is not good. It`s that christians are not good. Which you just admitted

So what?? Christianity does not rise or fall on the actions of Christians, but on the resurrection of Jesus, and upon His teachings. Again, it falls to Jesus as the standard by which Christianity is judged to be true or false. Blaming us is just an excuse.

Something you seem to be sorely lacking.

Oh really... excuse me for being offended when you compare me and my friends with the KKK and Westboro. Duuuuh, gee... can't imagine why someone might not take kindly to that.

If all your sins are already rebated and forgiven, what Hell is for?

Hell was originally created only for Satan and his angels, according to the Bible. Hell was never created for mankind.

If God forgave all sins, why would not everyone go to heaven?

What I said is that remedy has been provided. You have to accept the remedy; you have to appropriate it. It is not unilaterally or universally applied by God.

I don`t buy it. If all sins are forgiven, there would be no idea of Supreme Judgement at the end. How can you be judged over something you`re already pardoned for?

I made Jesus the Lord and Savior over my life. I am already forgiven and will not be judged. I accepted the remedy, the blood Jesus for my sins.

Pick something. Let`s suppose that God exists... Either Jesus forgave everyone, and you and me both go to heaven in the end, either he did not... And the court awaits us all.

Let's say you have a friend with a birthday and you buy them a present. You bring the present home, wrap it and set it on a table. Someone else walks by and asks whose present it is, and you reply, "oh, it is so and so's birthday present." In your mind, the present is already their's. You bought and wrapped with them in mind. They have not recieved it yet, but as far as you are concerned it is already their present.

Forgiveness is avaiable. It has been provided as a free gift. From God's vantage point, it already belongs to world. God's forgiveness must be appropriated. He leaves it up to you to make the choice. The trajedy is that so many people reject the free gift God offers.

[methinkshe]

Shiloh, keep up the good work. It is refreshing to read such a spirited and Spirit-filled defence of the faith that refuses to allow vain arguments spoken from ignorance.

May the Lord give you wisdom as you continue to proclaim the truth.

In Jesus wonderful Name,

Ruth

[Ishamael]

Oh, this is where we have misunderstanding then.

For me, christianity is the society of christians.

Teachings of Jesus are scriptures of christianity.

And I don`t like society of Christians, because every socium I`ve encountered so far is hostile, xenophobic and bigoted.

While I do agree with you, that it`s simply because you are all imperfect, I see no reason, why you all reject striving for perfection and instead wallow in your xenophoby.

My assertion is, that while all those, who identify themselves as christians (weather you acknowledge them as such or not), claim that they are adhering to scriptures, I`ve seen FOLLOWERS step over them time and time again.

Followers. Not Jesus. Followers.

My complaints were, that there are no way to identify genuinely good christians in the conditions of hostility and xenophoby, propagated by the likes of Phelps and Falwell.

Once again, I knew saints and abominations among christians individually, but I`ve never encountered SOCIUM of christians, which would not be hostile.

This gives all christians universally a bad name, and THAT was my complaint.

If you want to be treated as good person, be one. Simply saying, that you adhere to Jesus` teachings is not enough.

___

Scriptures of christianity are entirely different thing. I consider them an example of fine philosophy, and while I do not agree with them in it`s entirety, I can appreciate it`s valid points.

However, I do NOT discuss the philosophical values of christianity here. Current debate had been firmly directed into sociological discussion.

If you wish to debate those... That`s entirely different question, and entirely different topic.

___

I would also like to specifically point this out...

Consider, that I do NOT believe, that there IS God.

Since I do not believe he exists, all I have to make up my opinion on christianity is christians. And as I already said numerous times, so far, christians made bad impression.

I make up my opinions based on actions, not formal allegiance...

If you want to be considered good - do good.