Israel/ Holy Ground

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, I was hoping you would introduce the scriptures about Nathanael. I think I wrote a post a short while back on this very subject. Something I had uncovered while perusing the WEB. It seems that it was customary in those days for men to find a fig tree under which to study or to contemplate or just to pray. Fig trees were plentiful, as can be noted by the "cursed fig tree", that had grown alongside the road and no one in particular owned it. Anyway, a comment was made by Jesus of Nathanael:

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Here is Gr. word for "guile":

1388 dolos {dol'-os}

from an obsolete primary verb, dello (probably meant to decoy; cf 1185);; n m

AV - guile 7, subtilty 2, deceit 2, craft 1; 12

1) craft, deceit, guile

We know in Romans Paul speaks of those who are of "true Israel". In similar fashion Jesus says: "Behold an Israelite INDEED." This is the significance of the Fig Tree in that story. Contrast this with the Pharisees and the Sadducees who strutted around thinking they were better than everyone else and who persisted in their struggle to see Jesus killed. Also contrast Nathaniel with the idea of a "stiff necked people".

Did either of you by chance read the web pages I provided? I am certainly not alone in my interpretation of the fig tree. Men much more afluent in the scriptures than I have already reached that conclusion long before me. Your own blind biasness gets in the way of you listening to the Holy Spirit.

DadErnie,

I read both web pages, and neither source cited the process they employed to determine that Israel is the subject of the fig tree in every single instance that "fig tree" is used. Both sources, just as you, simply assume that the fig tree is Israel. I would like to see more explanation as to WHY every instance of "fig tree must mean Israel even when Scripture does not indicate such an explanation. Again, all that is offered is conjecture. Neither source seems to anticipate that such conjecture would, or could be challenged. I am simply applying proper hermeneutics and allowing the Bible to speak for itself.

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Here is Gr. word for "guile":

1388 dolos {dol'-os}

from an obsolete primary verb, dello (probably meant to decoy; cf 1185);; n m

AV - guile 7, subtilty 2, deceit 2, craft 1; 12

1) craft, deceit, guile

We know in Romans Paul speaks of those who are of "true Israel". In similar fashion Jesus says: "Behold an Israelite INDEED." This is the significance of the Fig Tree in that story. Contrast this with the Pharisees and the Sadducees who strutted around thinking they were better than everyone else and who persisted in their struggle to see Jesus killed. Also contrast Nathaniel with the idea of a "stiff necked people".

The subject here is Nathanael, not the fig tree. The fig tree only has significance if Jesus gives it signifcance. He does not. He makes no direct connection between the fig tree that Nathanael was sitting under and Israel whom you say God has cursed. The tree is not material to Jesus' conversation with Nathanael. Nathanael could have just as easily been sitting under a sycamore tree or a willow tree. If Nathanael had been sitting under a sycamore tree, would you be telling me that a sycamore tree now represents "true Israel?"

DadErnie, what you are doing is allegorizing. To connect the fig tree to Nathanael being a true Israelite, would be no different than saying that since Jesus found Peter in His fishing boat, the fishing boat must possess some spiritual importance. It is also no different than those who apply spiritual meaning to the five stones that David put in his bag on his way to fight Goliath. We fall into all kinds of wierd ideas about Scripture when we over spiritualize.

Now you are using the term "true Israel" in connection with the fig tree. You also mentioned the book of Romans. Paul, in Romans, pictures "true Israel" as an olive tree, not a fig tree; so you are way off on that part. Besides you spent many a post trying to convince me that it is natural Israel which is "cursed" that is represented by the fig tree. So, you are kind of all over the place.

I am certainly not alone in my interpretation of the fig tree.

Fortunately, truth is determined by a majority vote.

Your own blind biasness gets in the way of you listening to the Holy Spirit.

A better way to say that would be: "Hello kettle, I'm pot and your black."

[Guest yod]

oy Yod, your last comment to Shiloh reminds me about "every wind of doctrine". Especially after your prior post.

LOL

We are discussing a PARABLE!!!!

To confuse this with "doctrine" is error. My "new" perspective is that the PARABLE of the fig tree is not specific to Israel. This lesson of judgement on unfruitfulness applies to everyone. It is also a lesson of faith for all.

You are wrong about me Yod, I do not believe the "curse" upon Israel is FOREVER, for in the last days, even today in my belief, ALL ISRAEL shall be saved

.

I suppose that I knew that about you already. What I don't understand is why you think that Israel is still under this "curse" to the point of being excluded from possibly being considered just as "holy" today. That is the topic we are discussing, right?

And you still apply the verse of the "kingdom being taken" to be more than what it was. A judgement on the shepherds of Israel in that day. Not an eternal "doctrine"

[Arthur Durnan]

I see the Romans, the Gospel for the Believer, as eminently clear on Israel, especially, of course, the parenthetical portion of Romans 9, 10 and 11. Romans Chapter 9 is ISRAEL PAST; Romans Chapter 10 is ISRAEL PRESENT; and Romans Chapter 11 is ISRAEL FUTURE. Israel's future is indeed quite glorious upon the return of her Messiah-Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. And she'll be the recipient of most of the Middle East too, the land to be divided among the Tribes. And all nations will be blessed thru Israel, now at the "tail" of nations, then at the "head" of them all. The promise to Abraham in Genesis 15 is still on course. Thank You, Lord Jesus!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shiloh,

Shiloh: To say that you can point to Israel in every reference of a fig tree is ridiculous. Especially, when it comes to the curses. Jesus makes only one direct reference to Israel being like fig tree. He is specific and it is unquestionable (Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28) However, the parable of Luke 13:6-9 is never explained by Jesus or any apostle as having to do with Israel. To say that the fig tree represents Israel in that parable is nothing more than conjecture. The Bible is its own best commentary. If it were about Israel, Jesus would have come right out and said it. I do believe Israel has been punished for its unbelief. Punishment is different than cursing though. There are no grounds for saying that the Jews are under God's curse.

Shiloh: Jesus did use a fig tree figuratively to represent Israel. Mark 13:28-30

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. [29] "Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. [30] "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

You are not being honest with yourself or the scriptures. By interpreting the fig tree in Mt. 24 as Israel, aren't you doing that which you accuse me of? The fig tree in Luke 13 appears to me to be the most clear of all the scriptures depicting Israel, and you even deny that. Believe me, I feel sorry for you because you "twist" the scriptures to suit YOUR purposes, instead of listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying.

I am praying for you and Yod.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[angels4u]

The figtree is the symbol (or type) of the nation of Israel. Jesus taught that prior befor His second coming the figtree would put forth leaves. In 1948 Israel became a nation .When Jesus comes back the people who are willing to recieve Him will produce fruit (putting forth the leaves).

The generation who is living and seeig these things happening might also be the generation who will see Jesus coming back .

And we are that generation---so??????

Angels

[JesusisGod2]

Greetings Shiloh,

Can you please tell me what these verses mean:

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Heb 8:1-5 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

What makes a place "holy" is the "presence of God". The only place now that is HOLY is the Kingdom of God, and the saints that inhabit it. It is among us, it is universal. What made Mt. Horab Holy? It was the presence of God that met Moses there.

I believe that on account of the Fathers and the Holy covenant, that Jerusalem shall be the place from where Jesus and all His saints shall rule for 1,000 years, but ersatz Israel cannot be considered Holy at present.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Hi Dad,

It isintersting to note your scripture references, especially your reference to Revelation 11:2 wher it says that they shall trample under foot the "holy city".

even though they trample it under foot, it is still called the "holy city" sure it is destined to perish as is the whole earth, but God in Revelation calls it the holy city as He does the new Jerusalem.

Pray for the peace of Israel, those who do will be very blessed by it.

I used to pray for her when I thought about it, now I try to pray for her every day, and I have been very , very, blessed and the Holy Spirits presence is very much felt. Coincidence? perhaps, but I dont believe so.

When one says that Israel is forsaken of God and has been replaced by the church, they are in effect saying that Israel is cursed, and we all know what God says about those who curse Israel.

God says that He will curse those who curse thee and bless those who bless thee.

I encourage everyone to pray for the peace and salvation of Israel, those who do will experience the blessing that I am speaking of. Its definately a beautiful thing.

satan is very subtle in the ways that he wants to steal our blessings from God. One thing for sure is that he hates Israel and wants others to do the same. This is why he attacks her during the tribulation, for he knows how much God loves and longs for her to repent and turn back to Him, and they will God says they will.

When the natural branches are grafted back in to their tree, what a church we shall have, its coming soon. revival is on its way praise God!

In Jesus

Kevin

[Guest shiloh357]

You are not being honest with yourself or the scriptures. By interpreting the fig tree in Mt. 24 as Israel, aren't you doing that which you accuse me of?

No, because I am not trying to make a parable into a prophecy. The context of Matt 24 deals with the events surrounding the rebirth of Israel. Many of the events are mentioned as occuring in the land. Though the events are not necessarily mentioned in chronological order, they include the rebirth of Israel and indicate that Jews are in the Land when all the other events (wars, rumors of wars, etc.) occur.

The fig tree in Luke 13 appears to me to be the most clear of all the scriptures depicting Israel, and you even deny that.

DadErnie, show me where the BIBLE says "the parable in Luke 13 is about Israel," or something akin to that. Show me where Jesus refers to that specific parable as Israel, and I will be satisfied. You are the one desparately trying to make Israel "cursed." YOU are the twister. You cannot find ONE literal statement to support your views; rather, you quote verses out of context, you violate every rule of hermeneutics, and empoy the most unusual theological gymnastics I have ever seen. You have to work so hard to make Israel appear cursed. You boast against the natural olive branches that were cut off, by calling them cursed. You are doing exactly what Romans 11 says not to do.

[Guest yod]

I have to agree that this verse does not specifically say that Israel is the fig tree that was cursed. Yes, Israel is compared to a fig tree in one or more verses in the Bible but not "necessarily" here so please show a little grace for people who don't see this the same way, DE

This is why I don't make doctrine from a parable. It can be interpreted SO many ways....and the purpose of a parable is not for doctrine.

Dad, I sincerely and humbly submit that you might read into that parable more than it actually says but I won't fight you on it. Sometimes you get overly defensive when someone doesn't totally agree with you. You could almost be a Texas redneck! Let it go. The Lord is your defense.

I vouch for DE that he does not hate the jewish people or consider them cursed. (right DE?)

This is not important enough to divide us. It's not like disagreeing with either of you on this makes someone a flaming heretic.

Ya'll kiss and make up, ok? Pretty please with sugar on top??

[Guest shiloh357]

Yod,

I vouch for DE that he does not hate the jewish people or consider them cursed. (right DE?)

I see your point. The problem is that when one talks about natural Israel being cursed, it begs the question, "who makes up the populace of natural Israel?" Israel is a nation of Jews. One could not say (hypothetically) that they love Israel, but do not care for Jews. How can that be? I am not saying that DadErnie feels that way, I am simply illustrating a point.

If he says that God cursed Israel, then (perhaps without realizing it) he is saying that God cursed the Jews who make up Israel. He needs to find another way to communicate God's relationship with Israel; unless he really does believe that God cursed the Jews.

I do not think that DE hates Jews or is anti-Semitic in anyway. I just think he needs to see that it is not necessary to believe that he is the ONLY one who can see things clearly, and everyone is blind if they do not see things his way.