In the beginning........

[nebula]

Fair enough, lets see...........

Psa 139:7 Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?

Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,

Psa 139:10 even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

Psa 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,"

Psa 139:12 even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.

Jer 23:23 "Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God afar off?

Jer 23:24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD.

Act 17:28 for "'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, "'For we are indeed his offspring.'

OK, let's look at what these Scriptures say, and what they do not say.

These Scriptures say that the Lord is found at every place.

None of them say the Lord is found in any thing. ("If I cut a tree down, I've cut You down." "If I jump in the water, I've jumped into You." "When I breath air, I breath in You." )

[Guest]

These Scriptures say that the Lord is found at every place.

None of them say the Lord is found in any thing.

Ah!

[nebula]

Well everywhere means every bit of space as we know it, it means every place that can have anything in it.

If God being omnipresent and is everywhere, he naturally takes up all the space there is. There is no space for anything else and therefore there is no space for anything. So whatever is in existance must be God. Which means everything.

Here is my challenge: The definition of the word" everywhere."

American Heritage Dictionary -

eve

[Questing One]

I don't know......

We'll have to define Time in order to "blame" it for having a beginning

Let's assume for the discussion that Time has a beginning. It would mean that time is a limited entity.

God is omnipresent and limitless. Is Time the same as God?

Not if it's limited. But if not then it is something else.

But if so there is now God and there is Time. Two separate entities!

So God is everything....except Time?

Or is Time, one with God?

If it is, then Time is limitless (just as God is) and HAS NO BEGINNING

Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Blessings

I think it is more that WE mark the beginning as being the start of God's creations and thus, the mortal conception of the beginning of time. Time is a small thing that will eventually have an end. God never ends, and never dies, nor does something humanly created such as time have any effect on Him. We created Time whereas God created us. SO if we dissappear then our conception of time dissappears, which means that in the final coming of the Lord and the trials and tribulations afterward, Time would cease to exist or be a factor. For if there is noone to record time then doesn't it become nothing and meaningless? God would never become nothing nor meaningless because eventually we will go home and when we do, we will spend eternity with God. Therefore, we would forever be there to record and praise him and his works. I think I have just ranted and not really said anything.

[hupo]

Again, that is not in line with how the Bible reflects the presence of God. You are entering a very dangerous area of false teaching and false doctrine, with all due respect. You are imposing a definition on "everywhere" that is not consistent with the biblical view of God's omnipresence.

Again, this IS pantheism. It is apparent that you need further instruction from a competent pastor or bible teacher where you live.

You know Shilo, you could be 100% correct but putting it the way you do only creates arguments.

I have the same discussion with Nebula and my feeling is I am learning a lot from his questions.

I feel a sincere attempt to show me where I'm wrong.

Yes, I could very well be wrong but I do need to check things out.

What I'm getting from you is an attempt to shut me up with all this "dangerous" and "false" stuff.

Why is it dangerous and who is it dangerous to?

What I am presenting is something every thinking believer goes through. To accuse me of Pantheism means you don't listen to half of what i've said so far.

You know Shilo, ....once upon a time they didn't let the masses read the bible for fear they should read it wrong, do you think we should go back there?

The way you are reacting to my proposals shows you are very unsure of your own faith, maybe you should think about that.

If you can be a witness rather than a judge on these issues it would really help me to learn from you, and you do seem to know your scripture, I'll give you that. Please relax. I'm NOT opening up a new religion or doctrine.

I have studied for months with Chabad and have studied for months with Jehovah's Witnesses and, wonder of wonders! I am here with the same faith as you, believing in One God and in Yeshua who is God Himself and in our salvation through Yeshua's sacrifice for us at the cross, and yes.... with many yet unanswered questions....

So why don't we study this together rather than argue against each other?

Isa 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. Said the Lord who didn't accuse me of Pantheism

Blessings

[hupo]

Fair enough, lets see...........

Psa 139:7 Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence?

Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!

Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,

Psa 139:10 even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me.

Psa 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,"

Psa 139:12 even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.

Jer 23:23 "Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God afar off?

Jer 23:24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD.

Act 17:28 for "'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, "'For we are indeed his offspring.'

OK, let's look at what these Scriptures say, and what they do not say.

These Scriptures say that the Lord is found at every place.

None of them say the Lord is found in any thing. ("If I cut a tree down, I've cut You down." "If I jump in the water, I've jumped into You." "When I breath air, I breath in You." )

Good point

I'll need a bit of time to check this one out

Blessings

[hupo]

Well everywhere means every bit of space as we know it, it means every place that can have anything in it.

If God being omnipresent and is everywhere, he naturally takes up all the space there is. There is no space for anything else and therefore there is no space for anything. So whatever is in existance must be God. Which means everything.

Here is my challenge: The definition of the word" everywhere."

American Heritage Dictionary -

eve

[hupo]

I don't know......

We'll have to define Time in order to "blame" it for having a beginning

Let's assume for the discussion that Time has a beginning. It would mean that time is a limited entity.

God is omnipresent and limitless. Is Time the same as God?

Not if it's limited. But if not then it is something else.

But if so there is now God and there is Time. Two separate entities!

So God is everything....except Time?

Or is Time, one with God?

If it is, then Time is limitless (just as God is) and HAS NO BEGINNING

Boggles the mind, doesn't it?

Blessings

I think it is more that WE mark the beginning as being the start of God's creations and thus, the mortal conception of the beginning of time. Time is a small thing that will eventually have an end. God never ends, and never dies, nor does something humanly created such as time have any effect on Him. We created Time whereas God created us. SO if we dissappear then our conception of time dissappears, which means that in the final coming of the Lord and the trials and tribulations afterward, Time would cease to exist or be a factor. For if there is noone to record time then doesn't it become nothing and meaningless? God would never become nothing nor meaningless because eventually we will go home and when we do, we will spend eternity with God. Therefore, we would forever be there to record and praise him and his works. I think I have just ranted and not really said anything.

Hey QO, you have anything but ranted

What you are saying (in my understanding) is basically "Your ways are not my ways and your thoughts are not my thoughts" (don't remember the reference). It is clear that we are using terms invented for human beings, mainly logical ways of thinking and as God is beyond that, God is also out of our understanding, in our logical limited minds. Where we "understand" God is in the spiritual realm. We say we "know" God, which is nuts in logical terms but makes all the sense in the world in the spiritual realm.

Thanks! Good post!

Blessings

[Guest shiloh357]

The way you are reacting to my proposals shows you are very unsure of your own faith, maybe you should think about that.

Actually, I am not unsure of my faith at all. My reaction to your proposals is based upon knowing the truth and being very sure of what I believe. I think it is the absolute assurance of faith that I possess that bothers you. I am not coming to you as someone who doesn't know the truth, but of someone who is completely assured of it. I know what the Bible says, because I study it. I know exactly what I believe and why. And I can see theological error, when it presents itself particuarly in your "God is everything" assertion.

What I'm getting from you is an attempt to shut me up with all this "dangerous" and "false" stuff.

Shut you up? So are we playing the martyr now? I am not trying to shut you up, but you are presenting as biblical truth a belief that God is everything, and there is absolutely nothing in the Scriptures that supports that notion. You are making unfounded jump from everywhere to everything.

You know Shilo, ....once upon a time they didn't let the masses read the bible for fear they should read it wrong, do you think we should go back there?

Nonsense. Again, with the martyr card.

Where I stand, it is analagous to you thinking you can fly. If you were to stand on the top edge of a 6 six story building and are prepated to jump because you think you can fly. But along comes this poison pill named "Shiloh" who informs you that no, you cannot indeed fly. I don't stand there and entertain your reasons why you think you can fly. I happen to know for a fact, that a human being cannot fly, and you are not an exception to that rule. Of course, I burst your bubble in letting you know that if you jump, you will die, not fly. It isn't something you want to hear. You want to check it for yourself and I have no right to prevent you from doing whatever you feel is necessary to including jumping from a tall building to test your theory. So, you will either believe you can fly, or you will believe the truth. I can't shut you up, or stop you from believing what you want; it is your life.

It is the same here. The problem is not that I am being tyrannical or judgmental. I have not judged you or mistreated you at all. I am simply telling you the truth. Instead of actually refuting me, your only reaction to act as if my absolute assertion that God is NOT everything, is an attempt to shut you up. Please do not play this martyr game with me. Truth is truth, and you really need to find a competent pastor or Christian leader to disciple you.

[Guest]

Wonder Filled Family

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

Psalms 133:1

Guess I'll Just Have To Wait In Line Behind Brother David And Brother Hupo And Brother Shiloh And....

One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalms 27:4

His Ways

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8-9

Our Prayer

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Psalms 122:6

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe