In the beginning........

[EricH]

Which brings me back to the question you said you'd chew on...

Is God in the heart of the non-believer?

According to Scripture He is not..... but He is standing at the door knocking, hoping they will open the door and let Him in.

rev. 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

I believe that God chases down the unbeliever hoping that he will stop running and allow His love to envelope, save and heal. I've always loved the poem The Hound of Heaven.

As I read Revelation 3:20 in its context I do not see at as being addressed to unbelievers or their hearts. The context of Revelation 3:20, as I see it, is the church at Laodicea. The image is Jesus being kept outside the doors of His own church, and inviting them to repent. Here is the context:

To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says: I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish that you were cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, 'I'm rich; I have become wealthy, and need nothing,' and you don't know that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire so that you may be rich, and white clothes so that you may be dressed and your shameful nakedness not be exposed, and ointment to spread on your eyes so that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and discipline. So be committed and repent. Listen! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and have dinner with him, and he with Me.

Revelation 3:14-20 HCSB

The context is that the church at Laodicea had ceased to be either spiritually healing, or spiritually refreshing. They had also come to believe that they were self sufficient. Jesus, through the disciplining process, was knocking at the door of the church, seeking to restore fellowship with them The passage does not seem to relate to the unsaved in anyway. So, I don't think it can be used as a proof text regarding the disposition of the unbelievers heart as it relates to God.

[hupo]

Well Nebula,

Your questions have had a telling effect.

I am very tired with this debate and naturally asked myself, why?

On one hand my proposals were all logical (to my mind of course). There is always a logical reason for whatever is going on or seems to be going on. Yet all this logical thinking is human mind based and therefore limited. I know my thinking is limited and I want to emphasize that whatever I have proposed, is not what I believe in. It is an attempt to understand the un-understandable reality of God. And again I am talking about human logical knowledge only.

You could see my proposals as an experiment. An experiment in logical thinking.

God is beyond that and I know it.

My proposals in the logical realm do not quite fit in with my "Knowledge" of God as is presented based on faith.

I understand.

Your experiment wasn't a bad idea, actually.

In my post above, I pointed out where the fallicy was - your presentation of the premise. It was like saying A = C because B = C and therefore A = B. Or something like that.

Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Oh yes, it makes sense all right. In fact the way you presented your "case" left me with a lump of swiss cheese, so full of holes I was getting tired just trying to fill them up

I think that trying to explain something beyond logic in logical terms is the cause of all these holes in my logic.

Trouble is God gave us a logical mind and I am convinced that it wasn't supposed to be used as a paper-weight.

I guess patience is a key word here. After all God said that one day we will know Him from the lowest to the greatest, we will all know Him.

There is still the question you presented... what is "spirit"?

I would like to tackle that but I think I'll take a little breather first

Thank you so much Nebula, it's fun discussing things with you

A word for you Shilo...

First I apologize if I lashed out at you. You seem to be quite knowledgable and it seems a pity to get caught up in arguments rather than discussions.

My feeling is I could learn quite a bit from you.

I don't know if you are into it but I would like to hear your way of seeing things. If not, that's fair enough and I will thank you for your input so far

Blessings

[Guest shiloh357]

Shilo

I'll spell it out for you, it is very simple...

If you want to tell me what you know as the truth, I am willing to listen and probably learn something

If all you intend to do is tell me how wrong I am, I am not interested

Can you be a witness without being a judge?

I am not "judging" you. I have nowhere judged you. I have presented fact. I have not belittled you, or diminished you. I have not attacked you, or insulted you. I have not implied in any way that you are a bad person or less of a person. So please stop accusing me of what I have not done simply because you don't like the directness with which I approach this issue.

All I have done is state unequivically that the Bible does not support the assertion that God is everything. You are the one you stated that it is expressed in the Bible.

I am saying nothing in the Bible declares "everywhere" to be equivalent to "everything." You are asserting the possibility that the whole of creation is God on the grounds that God's omnipresence should be interpreted in what I call a "hyper-literal" fashion. The hyper-literal position would be that God inhabits every atom and molecule. That every cell and cavity in every living and non living thing is filled with the presence of God, and that is not what the Bible teaches.

What the Bible teaches is that God is separate and transcendent from Creation. He sustains it but He does this from the outside. Please try to understand: It is impossible to be both creator and creature at the same time.

If God is everything, then everything, including man, is Divine. That is the logical end to which position leads, and is not found anywhere in Scripture.

God says that He alone is God, and that there is none beside Him

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

(Isaiah 45:5)

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

(Isaiah 45:6)

For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

(Isaiah 45:18)

God cannot be God alone if EVERYTHING is God. If everything is God, who do we pray to? Also those Scriptures above point to a God who is separate from creation.

The doctrine of God's omnipresence simply means that there is no where place on earth where the presence of God cannot be realized and discovered. God is over all of His creation. He sustains all life and gives breath to every creature. It is not saying that God inhabits everything, but simply states that God is capable (given that he is noncorpreal) to be in all places (not in all things) at one time.

[nebula]

Oh yes, it makes sense all right. In fact the way you presented your "case" left me with a lump of swiss cheese, so full of holes I was getting tired just trying to fill them up

Thanks for the feedback!

If it helps you to know, my train of thought in this has been developing after debating with Atheists/Agnostics over God's "omnipresence" (some weird "logical" argument that they came up with). Somewhere along the line I noticed that their whole premise was based on their concept of "omnipresence," which was actually missing the point of someone coming up with the word to describe God.

I think that trying to explain something beyond logic in logical terms is the cause of all these holes in my logic.

Ah, the mark of brilliance! Knowing the limits of the human brain. (Tell that to the Atheists! )

[hupo]

Oh yes, it makes sense all right. In fact the way you presented your "case" left me with a lump of swiss cheese, so full of holes I was getting tired just trying to fill them up

Thanks for the feedback!

If it helps you to know, my train of thought in this has been developing after debating with Atheists/Agnostics over God's "omnipresence" (some weird "logical" argument that they came up with). Somewhere along the line I noticed that their whole premise was based on their concept of "omnipresence," which was actually missing the point of someone coming up with the word to describe God.

I think that trying to explain something beyond logic in logical terms is the cause of all these holes in my logic.

Ah, the mark of brilliance! Knowing the limits of the human brain. (Tell that to the Atheists! )

I'm not sorry about this discussion. I have definatly learned from it. Judging by the number of posts you have to your name I guess I still have a long way to go

I've been warned by quite a few good intending believers, to keep away from Jehovah's witnesses, after telling them I'm in contact with one and actually studying with her. One of my quirks is if someone Shouts: "Bomb!" I go to find out how it works... So after being warned about JW I went to one of their meetings "to find out how they work" and you know what? To my amazement I came out stronger in my own belief which is about 180 degrees out of theirs. I studied with Chabad, the orthodox Jews, for 8 months and even spent a weekend with them. Definatly not my cup of tea but very educational. I guess this is why I throw out proposals that are bound to get a discussion going.

I'm just sorry some people get upset with these discussions.

Thank you Nebula. You are a good teacher. You talk but you listen too.

By the way, I haven't forgotten the "spirit" issue. And I'm still not sure about "omnipresence" and the other "omni's"

After all this I should get back to my original question "in the beginning of what?!" - it will probably take on a new light now

Blessings