Family Out of Order

[firehill]

Adam did not represent Eve regarding her sin. God did not call Adam to account for Eve's sin, he called him to account for his own sin. Regarding the rest of your comments that is an argument from silence. If God had wanted Adam to represent Eve, then the first place he would have called him to represent her was after the fall. If God didn't call Adam to account for Eve's sin but he called Eve to account for her own sin, then your argument doesn't even get off the ground in the first place.

That's the point! The foundation given in Genesis at creation. Where can one go without groundwork?

[Openly Curious]

Let me share a little story. A wife goes out and buys a few jars of baby food for herself to snack on. (they have no babies yet, they are newlywed) The husband arrives home from a long day of work and the wife is preparing dinner. They hug and kiss and say hello and ask about each other's day, etc. The husband goes to help himself to a drink from the fridge, and sees a jar of half eaten baby food. The husband bewildered, asks his wife where this came from. The wife explained that it was hers. The husband becomes somewhat upset and even raises his voice a little, saying that no wife of his is going to eat baby food, etc. The wife quietly accepts this and proceeds to dispose of the baby food. I would agree the husband was a little harsh and unreasonable, but that does not matter. God says wives are to submit to their husbands. This wife, by submitting to her husband, obeyed God. Perhaps the husband was in disobedience because he is not supposed to be harsh with her, but two wrongs do not make a right. It is God we serve first and foremost, and God's word says that wives are to submit to their husbands.

So sorry to see this kind of interpretation of Pauls call to sacrificial love and submission in marriage. Where on earth anyone gets any idea that husbands get to command wives to do this or that is beyond me. And we wonder why there is such a high rate of divorce amongst Christians which is usually instigated by women.

As a male OopsMartin could you tell us simpleton's by example just how you yourself submit and obey our Lord Jesus Christ?

OC

[firehill]

Just thought I'd put some scripture in....

Genesis 2:18 (King James Version)

18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:23 (King James Version)

23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Genesis 3:6-24 (King James Version)

6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life

We're discussing all those scriptures in 'Adam's responsibility'. Wanna have a look?

Timothy 2:9-14 (King James Version)

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

There is a thread we're still at, in doctrinal questions, '1 Tim 2:15'. All that has beenn addressed. Here:

http://www.worthyboards.com/index.php?showtopic=63496

1 Corinthians 11:3 (King James Version)

3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

No one responded to my post here in this thread on that passage.

Ephesians 5:22-33 (King James Version)

22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Good passage.

Colossians 3:18-21 (New International Version)

Rules for Christian Households

18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

19Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.

20Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

21Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.

We're trying to get to cover this one too as I already said in this thread. Hopefully everyone is reading the entirety of the threads.

[Marnie]

I read the whole thing. I have only one word: OMIGOSH.

Speaking of "heads," it gave me a pain in mine.

[Ovedya]

Where does the bible say that Adam was credited with bringing sin into the world because he was the first one created? No, Adam was credited because he sinned willfully and with knowledge.

Hmmm....

Where does it say in the Bible that Adam was credited with the fall because he sinned willfully and with knowledge?

"But death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of Him who was to come." (Rom. 5:14)

Notice that it does not say, "After the likeness of Eve's transgression." It does not say that Eve was a type of Him who was to come.

Adam is the head of the old creation. The old creation is called "Adamic" because of this. The name "Adam" in the following verse is actually the title given to fallen humanity, the old creation: "For just as in Adam all die..." (1 Cor. 15:22a)

Adam is the head of the old creation and so therefore the transgression of his sin is passed on to all who are in the old creation.

Adam was not deceived so his rebellion brought rebellion into the world. Eve fell into sin, she did not walk into sin with her eyes wide open in rebellion. She was fully deceived and therefore she could not bring the sin of rebellion into the world. When we attribute sin to Adam because he was male and because he was the first one created, then we are attributing favoritism to God. But if we understand as scripture says that Adam's sin was different than Eve's and God judges the motives of one's heart, then we surely can understand why sin came through Adam.

I disagree. The attribution of sin to Adam was not because he was male, but because he was the head of the old creation. He was the first one created. Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation and so is the head of the new creation.

Jesus too is the last Adam because just as Adam brought rebellion into the world through his act of rebellion, so Christ brings righteousness through his righteousness. When we were "in" Adam we fell with him. When we are "in" Christ his righteousness is attributed to us on our behalf. Praise God that Christ took my sins and your sins and allowed me to be "in" him. This is the very basis of Christianity.

I don't disagree with this. In Christ is the finish of the old creation and, as the firstborn of the new creation He is the head of the new creation, which is the Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ (Even the New Jerusalem).

Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

Adam was the one who dealt treacherously because he sinned when he was not deceived.

1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Adam brought rebellion into the world because he sinned with rebellion in that he dealt treacherously with God. It was his motive that scripture attributes to his sin, never because he was the first created.

Yes, scripture very clearly says that it was only Adam who brought sin into the world and we know from the OT that it was the way he sinned - treacherously against God. Paul says that he himself had sinned ignorantly and in unbelief and he found mercy.

1Ti 1:13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

Eve found mercy because she had fallen into sin because of deception. She did not bring rebellion into the world. Adam did not sin because of deception and his deliberate decision to sin brought rebellion into the world.

Hmmm...

In Hosea 6:7 "Adam" is used as the corporate term for "man." The word "transgression" in Hebrew is given to mean, "To pass over (or through)...to go beyond." It indicates an action which is in contrast to the keeping of a law or rule. To "rebel" against God is to engage in an act of war against him.

Adam's "transgression" was not an act of war. It was an act of weakness to an overwhelming desire to please himself, and even to please his mate. As the head of the old creation, however, this sin was charged against him. Note that in God's punishment of him, He commanded that he should till the ground all the days of his life. This is God's punishment: For man to labor for his food rather than to tend a garden which provided freely for him. Thereore, man's punishment was literally to labor over the fallen world.

[inhistime]

Where does the bible say that Adam was credited with bringing sin into the world because he was the first one created? No, Adam was credited because he sinned willfully and with knowledge.

Hmmm....

Where does it say in the Bible that Adam was credited with the fall because he sinned willfully and with knowledge?

"But death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of Him who was to come." (Rom. 5:14)

Notice that it does not say, "After the likeness of Eve's transgression." It does not say that Eve was a type of Him who was to come.

Adam is the head of the old creation. The old creation is called "Adamic" because of this. The name "Adam" in the following verse is actually the title given to fallen humanity, the old creation: "For just as in Adam all die..." (1 Cor. 15:22a)

Adam is the head of the old creation and so therefore the transgression of his sin is passed on to all who are in the old creation.

Adam was not deceived so his rebellion brought rebellion into the world. Eve fell into sin, she did not walk into sin with her eyes wide open in rebellion. She was fully deceived and therefore she could not bring the sin of rebellion into the world. When we attribute sin to Adam because he was male and because he was the first one created, then we are attributing favoritism to God. But if we understand as scripture says that Adam's sin was different than Eve's and God judges the motives of one's heart, then we surely can understand why sin came through Adam.

I disagree. The attribution of sin to Adam was not because he was male, but because he was the head of the old creation. He was the first one created. Jesus is the firstborn of the new creation and so is the head of the new creation.

Jesus too is the last Adam because just as Adam brought rebellion into the world through his act of rebellion, so Christ brings righteousness through his righteousness. When we were "in" Adam we fell with him. When we are "in" Christ his righteousness is attributed to us on our behalf. Praise God that Christ took my sins and your sins and allowed me to be "in" him. This is the very basis of Christianity.

I don't disagree with this. In Christ is the finish of the old creation and, as the firstborn of the new creation He is the head of the new creation, which is the Body of Christ, and the Bride of Christ (Even the New Jerusalem).

Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.

Adam was the one who dealt treacherously because he sinned when he was not deceived.

1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Adam brought rebellion into the world because he sinned with rebellion in that he dealt treacherously with God. It was his motive that scripture attributes to his sin, never because he was the first created.

Yes, scripture very clearly says that it was only Adam who brought sin into the world and we know from the OT that it was the way he sinned - treacherously against God. Paul says that he himself had sinned ignorantly and in unbelief and he found mercy.

1Ti 1:13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

Eve found mercy because she had fallen into sin because of deception. She did not bring rebellion into the world. Adam did not sin because of deception and his deliberate decision to sin brought rebellion into the world.

Hmmm...

In Hosea 6:7 "Adam" is used as the corporate term for "man." The word "transgression" in Hebrew is given to mean, "To pass over (or through)...to go beyond." It indicates an action which is in contrast to the keeping of a law or rule. To "rebel" against God is to engage in an act of war against him.

Adam's "transgression" was not an act of war. It was an act of weakness to an overwhelming desire to please himself, and even to please his mate. As the head of the old creation, however, this sin was charged against him. Note that in God's punishment of him, He commanded that he should till the ground all the days of his life. This is God's punishment: For man to labor for his food rather than to tend a garden which provided freely for him. Thereore, man's punishment was literally to labor over the fallen world.

Hmmmmm...

So you are saying that Hosea 6:7 has "man" transgressing like "man"? You are really trying to disregard scripture. Try to find an expert that says that this is not the first man Adam. The truth is that Adam dealt treacherously with God by his deliberate sin. You can say that it was an act of weakness but God doesn't say that. If Adam had a defense about his weakness, surely he would have said to God that he sinned because he was such a weak man. No, scripture does not verify this at all. Adam sinned deliberately and with knowledge of the truth. He brought sin into the world and there is no "Eve" that we can blame his sin for. The blame rests solely on Adam's shoulders since the way he sinned (treacherously against God) was rebellion and it alone brought rebellion into the world.

The idea that Adam sinned to please his mate is another myth. Where does the scripture give this as his motive? When God asked him about what he did, does Adam say that he sinned because he wanted to please his mate? No. He blames God for giving him the woman (the woman whom YOU gave me) and he blames the woman for giving him the fruit. He says nothing about a desire to please her. His act is an act of rebellion and is rightfully called treacherous.

[Emily~Anne]

Is it possible that we try too hard to make scripture fit with human reasoning?

Isaiah 55:8-9 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Matthew 18:1-4

The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[firehill]

Well no matter how you want to slice and dice the scriptures the fact still remains if a man no not how to rule his own household how shall he rule the household of God. You still have to have order in the home and in church no matter how you want it to read.

OC

You are exactly right OC. It is amazing the lengths people will go to in order to change the plain meaning given in scripture into something more palitable to their personal likes and dislikes.

Butero, I thought this was the plain meaning:

oopmartin:

More accurately it reads:

4

[Scarletprayers]

Well no matter how you want to slice and dice the scriptures the fact still remains if a man no not how to rule his own household how shall he rule the household of God. You still have to have order in the home and in church no matter how you want it to read.

OC

You are exactly right OC. It is amazing the lengths people will go to in order to change the plain meaning given in scripture into something more palitable to their personal likes and dislikes.

your both right!

[Iryssa]

Let me share a little story. A wife goes out and buys a few jars of baby food for herself to snack on. (they have no babies yet, they are newlywed) The husband arrives home from a long day of work and the wife is preparing dinner. They hug and kiss and say hello and ask about each other's day, etc. The husband goes to help himself to a drink from the fridge, and sees a jar of half eaten baby food. The husband bewildered, asks his wife where this came from. The wife explained that it was hers. The husband becomes somewhat upset and even raises his voice a little, saying that no wife of his is going to eat baby food, etc. The wife quietly accepts this and proceeds to dispose of the baby food. I would agree the husband was a little harsh and unreasonable, but that does not matter. God says wives are to submit to their husbands. This wife, by submitting to her husband, obeyed God. Perhaps the husband was in disobedience because he is not supposed to be harsh with her, but two wrongs do not make a right. It is God we serve first and foremost, and God's word says that wives are to submit to their husbands.

Yeesh...while I agree she probably did the right thing (though I also think she should have politely asked him to think about a logical reason why she shouldn't eat it), I wouldn't be caught dead vowing to marry someone that controlling!