Family Out of Order

[Kansasdad]

My post #78 speaks into this quite well. Read David Scholer's comments in particular. He notes and I agree that the meaning of kephale is quite varied depending upon context. Sholer includes: "authority over", "preeminence", and "source.". There is even another that deals with the theme of one thing being derived from or through another, which is similar to source as in source of a river is "head" of the river.

Note that this discussion was also a hot one in the early church.

The Bishop of Alexandria (circa 400 AD) wrote: "The kephaleo of man is Christ, since he was made through him. The kephaleo of woman is man, since she was taken from his flesh. The kephaleo of Christ is God because he is from him."

Chrysostom of Constantinople (also circa 400 AD) wrote: "If Paul intended to speak of subjugation or ruling over, he would have spoken of a slave and a master rather than the instance of a wife."

The Bishop of Cilicia (Theodore) (circa 400 AD) also considered the head as a metaphor for origin. He stated: "Just as Christ was considered head of all who had been born in Him, so the woman has man as her head since she was taken from him."

Lets really look to what the church fathers said,

[Kansasdad]

No I'm not trying to narrow the topic down to just Genesis. We're also trying to discuss Eph 5, 1 Co 11, and we're trying to get to Col. So I'm trying to discuss Genesis, at creation WITH YOU. I can't discuss ALL relevent passages in the bible at once and not when thier entire context needs to be considered. There is a thread to discuss Genesis, at creation. I've already invited you there. I've also asked you to show me a scripture from Genesis, at creation that says that Adam had authority over Eve.

Yes, In 1 Co 11. The meaning of head is determined by its usage in an a particular context. The problem with what your telling me above is that it seems you want to add all the dots together before looking at EACH PASSAGE in context.

I said 'origin' is it's meaning in 1 Co 11. In Eph 5 the word is used AS A HEAD/BODY metaphor and so its meaning is DIFFERENT and the context is different.

1 Cor. 11:3

[Kansasdad]

I think it is ridiculous of you to compare the husband of a marriage relationship to the pastor or the priest of the church for the pastor of a church is not the "HEAD" of the church for that is "Jesus Christ" alone in which the whole family submits unto in the house of worship. God has his leaders in place but they do not ever take the headship of the church away from Christ.

I agree. I wasn't making that comparison, I was correcting the comparison.

Yes, Oops you were making that comparison or else you would have nothing to so call correct. You are not very good at correcting.

OC

Just to clarify it was K.D. in post #35 that made the comparison.

This thread is confusing enough. Nice to know who said what when we can find it.

And this was my response:

I think you miss understand me,

Eph. 5:22-24

[Openly Curious]

Kansas Dad

OC

[tsth]

(Although I believe this has two meanings, one with regard to fathers in the faith, and one in regard to fathers of a family order.)

Why the address to "fathers" in the following? Is it applicable for today?

Malachi 4:6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse."

Luke 1:17

And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Just as an example. How many fathers today have stood by and said nothing as a man came along and took his daughter to live with him and the daughter agreed. So the man did not even honor the daughter enough to marry her, BUT he will take a man's daughter and have sex with her outside of the covenant of marriage, and DAD says nothing???

Should dads be speaking and standing in the gate with regard to their daughters? Or, are dads doing the same thing with another man's daughter?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[exrockstar]

the issue with people against these verses is that:

women feel "hey there arent any good men and i sure don't want

to put my trust in a man. i trust myself."

then you have men "i want to make dinner and wash dishes. im not cut out

for pressure."

while all this is happening you have the kids seeing this.

Boys grow up not manning up to life

and living at home til they're 30. the dad did a "great job" by "teaching" them the Word but when the

son looks for a "godly woman," they look for a woman that allows them to wash

dishes while she works.

Son's vision of a godly woman is "I want a woman that washes me with the word and makes me feel safe

in her arms."

then you got girls growing up seeing men and women the same. what was "cool" for a man

to sleep around with a lot of women...now it's cool for a woman to sleep around with a lot of men.

after all, they believe they are equal.

when they grow up they have their seperate bank accounts

so "just in case" the marriage hits rocks they are ready to leave. Daddy and mommy never taught

them how to pick a godly man. daddy and mommy taught them how to leave when times get tough.

Daddy and mommy never said "sweetie a good man washes you with the word, is calm under pressure

loves you, and will make you feel safe." The values that daddy and mommy instilled in the daughter is that

a good man is defined by the great soup they make in the kitchen.

i say forget the soup. you got kids that are hungry and need an education.

[Openly Curious]

You are correct exrockstar mommy and daddy didn't show them the way is alot of the problem. Most of the young people today haven't got even a clue what marriage is all about. It takes the roles of mommy and daddy to show them and teach them in the word by way of education and by way of being the example before them.

OC

[exrockstar]

You are correct exrockstar mommy and daddy didn't show them the way is alot of the problem. Most of the young people today haven't got even a clue what marriage is all about. It takes the roles of mommy and daddy to show them and teach them in the word by way of education and by way of being the example before them.

OC

besides ive never said women should stay at home or any mumbo jumbo like that.

if i was married and my wife wanted to work then I would say OK.

But if we have kids then we would have to evaluate together what is best for the children.

forget my pride and forget her pride...it's now about the kids.

My objective as a man is to make sure my family is stable while at the same time I wash my wife

with the Word (which means i shouldnt neglect my studies) and we instill it in our children.

My wife shows affection while i display strength.

My wife recognizes the way i display my strength in the family.

in turn I acknowledge the love she shows me and, most importantly, our children.

I thank her by making sure she has everything she needs.

She is keeping the family together.

[OopsMartin]

You are correct exrockstar mommy and daddy didn't show them the way is alot of the problem. Most of the young people today haven't got even a clue what marriage is all about. It takes the roles of mommy and daddy to show them and teach them in the word by way of education and by way of being the example before them.

OC

besides ive never said women should stay at home or any mumbo jumbo like that.

if i was married and my wife wanted to work then I would say OK.

But if we have kids then we would have to evaluate together what is best for the children.

forget my pride and forget her pride...it's now about the kids.

My objective as a man is to make sure my family is stable while at the same time I wash my wife

with the Word (which means i shouldnt neglect my studies) and we instill it in our children.

My wife shows affection while i display strength.

My wife recognizes the way i display my strength in the family.

in turn I acknowledge the love she shows me and, most importantly, our children.

I thank her by making sure she has everything she needs.

She is keeping the family together.

That is a good picture. There is hope for you yet.

Aloha Nui