Family Out of Order

[firehill]

Still doesn't change the fact that " the origin of every woman is her husband" doesn't make any sense. The verse does not say the head of every woman is man, it says husband. All I can see from the author of the article you posted is an attempt to confuse the issue.

No matter how you try to word this, origin doesn't work!

God Bless,

K.D.

3Now I want you to realize that the head of EVERY man is Christ, and the head of THE WOMAN is MAN, and the head of Christ is God.

In Eph 5, the HUSBAND is said to be the head of the WIFE AS Christ is the head of the church, which is his BODY. This head/body metaphor pertains ONLY to husband and wives and Christ and the church. The head/body metaphor is one used of specific relationship and it is NOT USED of Christ/every man, man/woman nor God/Christ. Now in 1 Co 11 we have the metaphor used in a different way. EVERY man is not the body of Christ (only the church is), nor is Jesus the body of God nor is bachelorette the body of the bachelor because they are not in the specific relationship of marriage. So in 1 Co 11 the head of THE WOMAN is MAN, which is not to say that EVERY man is the head of EVERY woman. Paul used 'every' when refering to Christ being the head of 'every man'. In, 1 Co 11:3, Paul is talking about ORIGIN of THE WOMAN which is man because even as creation shows woman came from man just as Paul points to.

Remember:

2. If we start with authority in verse 3, then where is authority repeated in the passage? There is nothing in the passage that talks about the man's authority over the woman and nothing said about God's authority over Christ. What we would be left with is a verse devoid of any connection within the context. Is this what Paul does? No, not at all. Paul has told us in Philippians 3:1 that repetition is for our safety. When Paul repeats the meaning in the passage, we can be sure of his intended meaning. Where in the passage is authority spoken of as one person's authority over another? There is nothing of the sort. But let's see if source is repeated in the passage.

Then looking to Paul's repetition within the passage, the context confirms what I just said above. Paul is not saying that the wife originates from the husband!:

1Co 11:12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.

inhistime is correct:

Here we see two of the sources listed. The woman's origin is from the man, and the origin of all (the Alpha and the Omega of origins) is God.

If we mistake this passage to be about authority, we distort the passage. Paul then goes on to say that although the woman's origin is from the man, every man thereafter has his origin through the woman. The purpose is so that we are not independent on one another. Men cannot say that they do not need women and women cannot say that they do not need men. In the body of Christ we are all necessary and we are interconnected in Christ. Man is not more important than woman because he is her source and woman is not more important than man because she now is the source of all men. Our interconnection equals equality.

No matter how you try to word this, origin doesn't work!

Paul, said so in v. 12.

1Co 11:12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.

[inhistime]

1 Cor. 11:3

[firehill]

If you submit who has the authority. I disagree completely, simple logic says that wife's submission = husbands authority

Not in middle voice Greek. As for the rest of your response (which I've posted below) about 'submit' and making a comparision between Christ and the church and husbands and wives, I will have to get to it later. Just want you to know that I've not forgotten.

Eph. 5:25,28

[inhistime]

If you submit who has the authority. I disagree completely, simple logic says that wife's submission = husbands authority

Who said that someone has to be in authority? This is the world's way of looking at relationships but Jesus taught a different way. Instead of taking authority and lording it over others, he said that the greatest is the one who is servant of all. Does a servant have authority? They do have authority to use their gifts to benefit the church, but the worldly idea of taking authority over others is not taught by Jesus. Our only authority is Jesus.

It is also interesting that submission is taught as a Christian virtue, not merely a female virtue. Jesus submitted to washing the disciple's feet, yet he was their Lord.

There is no scripture that ever tells a man to take authority over his wife? Why? Because he isn't to do that. It isn't a Christian virtue. Instead he is to give himself for her. Giving and service is the Christian way not authority and rulership.

[Smalcald]

If you submit who has the authority. I disagree completely, simple logic says that wife's submission = husbands authority

Who said that someone has to be in authority? This is the world's way of looking at relationships but Jesus taught a different way. Instead of taking authority and lording it over others, he said that the greatest is the one who is servant of all. Does a servant have authority? They do have authority to use their gifts to benefit the church, but the worldly idea of taking authority over others is not taught by Jesus. Our only authority is Jesus.

It is also interesting that submission is taught as a Christian virtue, not merely a female virtue. Jesus submitted to washing the disciple's feet, yet he was their Lord.

There is no scripture that ever tells a man to take authority over his wife? Why? Because he isn't to do that. It isn't a Christian virtue. Instead he is to give himself for her. Giving and service is the Christian way not authority and rulership.

But as a male I am much more interested in what the bible tells women to do, than instructions for myself

You make good points. I think part of it is that men sit around and think man my wife is NOT doing this, instead we should be reading about what WE are to be doing, and as you say we are to serve with humility, which in the Christian view IS leading.

[Iryssa]

I think it's a mistake to assume that authority is a dirty word in Christianity. Authority IS given BY GOD to people in the Christian community. It does take a different form in Christianity, though. In the Christian community, someone in authority should be a servant, willing to wash the feet of their charges as Christ did. If someone in a position of authority is using that position correcty, they are using it out of love for and for the advantage of their charges. Therefore, it wouldn't be a mistake to say that a husband has authority...it's just that he needs to know what the Christian definition of that is

[firehill]

I think it's a mistake to assume that authority is a dirty word in Christianity. Authority IS given BY GOD to people in the Christian community. It does take a different form in Christianity, though. In the Christian community, someone in authority should be a servant, willing to wash the feet of their charges as Christ did. If someone in a position of authority is using that position correcty, they are using it out of love for and for the advantage of their charges. Therefore, it wouldn't be a mistake to say that a husband has authority...it's just that he needs to know what the Christian definition of that is

I think it's a mistake too. Authority is given by God to people in the Christian community in as much as what He gifts them with because it is ALL God's gifting, giving. The bible says that all we have comes from God.

We are starting with Christ (who's comparable in any SENSE?) as the example, willing to wash the feet of his DISCIPLES. The only position of authority is those God gifts one with, as pastor, teacher, apostle, etc... Does God gift maleness with authority? Is maleness a gift of authority? All we have comes from God.

So it would be a mistake to say that a husband has authority when the bible never once says so (aside the fact we're discussing the meaning of kephale), besides no one of the community is differientiated meaning some to be like Christ as servant and others to be like Christ as Lord.

The the line is drawn between the community (all christians) being christlike (behavior of saving, servanthood, delivering) vs. lordlike (behavior of ruling, having authority outside of being gifted or the scriptures).

[OopsMartin]

I think it's a mistake to assume that authority is a dirty word in Christianity. Authority IS given BY GOD to people in the Christian community. It does take a different form in Christianity, though. In the Christian community, someone in authority should be a servant, willing to wash the feet of their charges as Christ did. If someone in a position of authority is using that position correcty, they are using it out of love for and for the advantage of their charges. Therefore, it wouldn't be a mistake to say that a husband has authority...it's just that he needs to know what the Christian definition of that is

I think it's a mistake too. Authority is given by God to people in the Christian community in as much as what He gifts them with because it is ALL God's gifting, giving. The bible says that all we have comes from God.

We are starting with Christ (who's comparable in any SENSE?) as the example, willing to wash the feet of his DISCIPLES. The only position of authority is those God gifts one with, as pastor, teacher, apostle, etc... Does God gift maleness with authority? Is maleness a gift of authority? All we have comes from God.

So it would be a mistake to say that a husband has authority when the bible never once says so (aside the fact we're discussing the meaning of kephale), besides no one of the community is differientiated meaning some to be like Christ as servant and others to be like Christ as Lord.

The the line is drawn between the community (all christians) being christlike (behavior of saving, servanthood, delivering) vs. lordlike (behavior of ruling, having authority outside of being gifted or the scriptures).

What does a husband need authority for anyway? Show me somewhere in Ephesians 5:1-33 where a husband needs authority to do what Paul is admonishing.

But in general I agree that in the Christian community if we follow Christ's example, authority is serving in the power of the Holy Spirit

[firehill]

But in general I agree that in the Christian community if we follow Christ's example, authority is serving in the power of the Holy Spirit

[Openly Curious]

I think it's a mistake to assume that authority is a dirty word in Christianity. Authority IS given BY GOD to people in the Christian community. It does take a different form in Christianity, though. In the Christian community, someone in authority should be a servant, willing to wash the feet of their charges as Christ did. If someone in a position of authority is using that position correcty, they are using it out of love for and for the advantage of their charges. Therefore, it wouldn't be a mistake to say that a husband has authority...it's just that he needs to know what the Christian definition of that is

I think it's a mistake too. Authority is given by God to people in the Christian community in as much as what He gifts them with because it is ALL God's gifting, giving. The bible says that all we have comes from God.

We are starting with Christ (who's comparable in any SENSE?) as the example, willing to wash the feet of his DISCIPLES. The only position of authority is those God gifts one with, as pastor, teacher, apostle, etc... Does God gift maleness with authority? Is maleness a gift of authority? All we have comes from God.

So it would be a mistake to say that a husband has authority when the bible never once says so (aside the fact we're discussing the meaning of kephale), besides no one of the community is differientiated meaning some to be like Christ as servant and others to be like Christ as Lord.

The the line is drawn between the community (all christians) being christlike (behavior of saving, servanthood, delivering) vs. lordlike (behavior of ruling, having authority outside of being gifted or the scriptures).

I don't think that authority should be a dirty word or looked down upon. When God says that the husband is the head of the wife it simply means that the man being the head of the family is responsible for his family. With authority in the home comes great responsibilities with it and that is what it is referring to by the husbands being the head of the woman.

Now it is different in church or public worship service as Christ is the head and is responsible for the church His body. And both men and woman are the body of Christ and both must submit to His headship and those leaders God has placed in roles of authority in the church so their will be order and the ministry can get done. But with that leadership in the church their is responsibility that comes along with it for it even says to obey them for they watch for your souls.

There are two houses that needs to be addressed one's personal homes in marriage and the house of God in public worship as they are two seperate houses God is the head of His church and the husband is the head of his home. Christ is responsible for his church which both husbands and wives are part of and the husband is responsible for his family.

OC