Confused in Christ

[WayneB]

To ALL others,

Please keep to the topic of the thread. There are other threads to discuss and debate the existance of God. This is not one of them. Please respect our new friend SpiritedDefence and help him with suggestions on how to respond to his friends. I have deleted ALL posts which are not related to this thread. I pray you understand.

Bless you all,

Wayne

[Adstar]

Hello SpiritedDefence

I mean, I've always beleived that God knew everything and could do anything, after all he created the universe and has a plan for each of us, but one of my friends pointed out that if God truly knew what we were going to do before we did it, then we never really had the choice! It seems kind of obvious, but I never really thought about it before. Do we have any choices??? Surely we must be able to choose properly and without anyone telling us what we will choose if we are to faithfully accept Christ. How does this work if God KNOWS (and since He can't be wrong...) what we are going to choose?

Just because God knows what free will decisions we are going to make before we make them does not take away the free will in that decision that we make. Their point is illogical. Free will exists it does not matter if someone knows the future and knows what people will decide through their free will.

All praise the Ancient of Days

[Guest SpiritedDefence]

Hey! Thanks to everyone who replied! Though I'm still a little confused, I think trying to talk it out here is probably best. You guys really help me to see some of the problems and maybe the answers as well!

Still, here's what confused me:

Just because God knows what free will decisions we are going to make before we make them does not take away the free will in that decision that we make. Their point is illogical.

I don't know much about logic, excpet for some kind of general knowledge terms, so Adstar, if you could lay out really simply how its illogical (from premises to conclusion? ) that would be great! It kind of strikes me though that it isn't really answering the question to say that choosing and God knowing are compatible? After all, thats just what was giving me the problem to start with! If God really knows (and not just knows about the different paths our lives might take, but knows which one it will take) then we could not choose any differently from God knew we would do no matter how much we wanted to because that would mean God had been wrong! And obviously that isn't possible kind of by definiton!

Also, I understand the idea of a person knowing that a dog will eat food given to it, and so on, but isn't this a different way of knowing things that isn't really the same as God knowing things? After all, the dog might have a stomach upset and not want the food right? And until we give the dog the choice we don't really know...

Hmmm, I think I'm probably missing something, and the advice to back to the Word and study is a good one, but keep writing guys! Its really appreciated, even if I'm a little slow!

In Christ,

Spirited Defence

[Adstar]

Hey! Thanks to everyone who replied! Though I'm still a little confused, I think trying to talk it out here is probably best. You guys really help me to see some of the problems and maybe the answers as well!

Still, here's what confused me:

Just because God knows what free will decisions we are going to make before we make them does not take away the free will in that decision that we make. Their point is illogical.

I don't know much about logic, excpet for some kind of general knowledge terms, so Adstar, if you could lay out really simply how its illogical (from premises to conclusion? ) that would be great! It kind of strikes me though that it isn't really answering the question to say that choosing and God knowing are compatible? After all, thats just what was giving me the problem to start with! If God really knows (and not just knows about the different paths our lives might take, but knows which one it will take) then we could not choose any differently from God knew we would do no matter how much we wanted to because that would mean God had been wrong! And obviously that isn't possible kind of by definiton!

Also, I understand the idea of a person knowing that a dog will eat food given to it, and so on, but isn't this a different way of knowing things that isn't really the same as God knowing things? After all, the dog might have a stomach upset and not want the food right? And until we give the dog the choice we don't really know...

Hmmm, I think I'm probably missing something, and the advice to back to the Word and study is a good one, but keep writing guys! Its really appreciated, even if I'm a little slow!

In Christ,

Spirited Defence

SpiritedDefence

I don't know much about logic, excpet for some kind of general knowledge terms, so Adstar, if you could lay out really simply how its illogical (from premises to conclusion?  ) that would be great! It kind of strikes me though that it isn't really answering the question to say that choosing and God knowing are compatible? After all, thats just what was giving me the problem to start with! If God really knows (and not just knows about the different paths our lives might take, but knows which one it will take) then we could not choose any differently from God knew we would do no matter how much we wanted to because that would mean God had been wrong! And obviously that isn't possible kind of by definiton!

I apologise SpritiedDefence I suppose my answer was two short.

If we believe that God is all knowing and knows the future to the precision that is indicated by the detail of prophesy then the concept that He already knows someone. what they will do, all about their lives, thousands of years before they are even born is not too much of a stretch in the mind. God can create a free will system where He can have the individuals choosing what they may in the decisions of life and those individuals can live their lives acting on their free will with God already knowing what their every action and thought will be before they are even born. You are right that people have a kind of destiny that is God knows their destiny. But the individual has free will and make their own big decisions about eternity and faith. Fate and free will is not incompatible in this system because while God knows the individual

[tsth]

Dear Spirited Defence,

Please forgive me if I come off sounding indifferent, that is really not my intent, but I just wanted to say that frankly I think that debating with your friends is not profitable to begin with.

What I mean is, you in your thoughtful debate are not what's going to win them to Christ. It is not us who wins/convinces anyone. But, I do believe that the Holy Spirit can convict a sinful unbelieving heart. That has been the case with ALL BELIEVERS. It was not that they were won over by someones intellect at all. It was only by the speaking of the Truth, that anyone can hear, and therefore believe. So.......what I'm trying to say is, YOU BELIEVE, just speak what you know is the TRUTH/WORD. It is not up to you to be "smarter" than them. That's not what it's about anyway. It's about what you know about JESUS, what you've experienced about JESUS, and what the WORD says Himself, about Himself. So relax, and just live out YOUR FAITH, and gird up yourself in the faith, by remaining close to the LORD yourself, in prayer and study of His Word. He'll give you the words to speak, when necessary. It's not you Spirit, it's HIM! :il: Sometimes you are only throwing pearls to swine, when you are forcing the issue or trying to "win" someone by your own arguments. I know from experience that to argue over Christianity does not work. You speak and live what YOU KNOW! (I'm not saying that you don't witness, but do so at the prompting of the Holy Spirit, not just because you think you can by your own words) They will see and desire to ask, or not, but believe me, you didn't see Jesus chasing anyone down, begging or debating them to understand. The dialogue came, only from them observing Him in action, and then they had questions for Him, not the other way around. Some received what He said, many did not, but the ones who did receive, Nicodemus, the woman at the well, Zacheaus, etc., willingly listened to Him and respected His Authority. The others did not, and He did not pursue them to convince them.

I do hope I conveyed this how it was intended. I'm just letting you off the hook, relax, enjoy Christ, and let Him do the talking.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[WayneB]

Suzanne has just given the best advice in my humble opinion. Listen to her and ensure you pray over it, for God to direct your words and actions.

Many ex-athiests who have accepted Christ state that what drew them to the Truth was seeing Jesus Christ in others. Josh McDowell and C.S. Lewis both state this in their books, "More than a Carpenter" and "Mere Christianity", respectively. Both are short books and worth the time to read.

One more piece of advice. Does your campus have a Christian organization such as Campus Crusade for Christ, the Baptist Student Union or the Wesley Foundation? If so, join and surround yourself with fellow believers. It is through these organizations that believers help one another seach for those answers to the tough questions.

Let His light shine through you!

Blessings,

Wayne

[nebula]

If God really knows (and not just knows about the different paths our lives might take, but knows which one it will take) then we could not choose any differently from God knew we would do no matter how much we wanted to because that would mean God had been wrong! And obviously that isn't possible kind of by definiton!

If I may . . .

If you think of God living outside of time - at least, not bound by our time frame - and, as such, you consider that He is in the past, present, and future (can you grasp that?), then a future event for us is already a past even to God.

Maybe this would be easier to grasp. I make a time machine. I travel 10 years into the future. I learn about everything that happened in the last 10 years since I left. I also find out about family and friends, what they did, where one or the other went to college or married who or moved somewhere or whatever. I go back in time. Assuming I don't try to change the future (because that brings in too many dynamics for this right now - unless, of course my attempts at changes are what bring about the result - OK this gets crazy), but does my knowing the future change the person's choice? Let's say I try to warn my friend from making a decision that my future knowledge tells me is a bad decision. Well, you know human nature, when we want something, we'll find excuses and justifications for it. So, my friend makes the choice anyway. Or my friend made a good choice, and I encouraged it. It is still my friend's choice.

The idea is that knowing the future is more about seeing what will happen as if you saw it after it occured, or as it occured. Going back to the "present" doesn't make the future event (to us) any less a choice.

Is that clear, like muddy water isn't?

[WayneB]

Is that clear, like muddy water isn't?

Crystal clear to me.

Seriously, good point Neb. When we stop thinking of God in finite terms and realize that He is infinite in nature...the great I AM, we begin to understand and see a glipse of His magnificence.

[Guest SpiritedDefence]

Hey all! Lots of really helpful replies, though I guess the advice I had earlier about there being lots of different views on these boards is right! Firstly, I don't really know about just ignoring questions like these... After all, God gave us reason and intelligence to work things out for ourselves. Surely we should be able to come to God through reason AND faith??

I don't know my Bible well enough to quote off hand, but I'm sure theres a verse about questioning all things in the New Testament...

Anyway, I think I can conceive of god exisitng outside of time (just), but still don't see how that helps... If God can see the outcomes of our choices then they have already been taken (even if we can't see them from inside time!) and so there's no real choice... Ahhh, I'm really confused.

If someone could answer a really direct question(or explain why the question makes no sense!) that would be good...

If God knows the choices we will make, how could we ever choose differently to what God knows we will choose? And if we can't, then aren't our lives on rails to heaven or hell, like the Calivinists (?) say?

Spirited Defence

[nebula]

Well, if I knew what God knew and then decided to act differently than what God knew I would do, then I still made a choice. If I knew what God knew and decided I wanted to follow that choice anyway, then I still made a choice.

But, of course, I don't know know what God knows, so I decide what I want to do base on other things.

Well, let me ask this, if God knows what I will do, if I did not make the choice to do that, then what is it that I did? If our actions are not choices, then what are they?