Women pastors

[Vickilynn]

http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html

Question: "Women pastors / preachers? What does the Bible say about women in ministry?"

Answer: There is perhaps not a more debated issue in the church today than the issue of women serving as pastors / preachers in ministry. As a result, it is very important to not view this issue as men versus women. There are women who believe that women should not serve as pastors and that the Bible places restrictions on the ministry of women - and there are men who believe that women can serve as preachers and that there are no restrictions on women in ministry. This is not an issue of chauvinism or discrimination. It is an issue of Biblical interpretation.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims,

[st. Worm]

Let's get down to the nitty gritty dude. Which of the feminine denominations are you with? And yes, your statement reflected bias against males whether you are one or not. But then again many weak men in feminist denominations have decided to allow women to take over their church just like you. That is essentially how it happened. And based on your prior post, blaming men for the world's problems, apparently you have bought into their feminine world view. Step up to the plate and be a man and take your church back.

sw

Well dude, I don't know any feminist denominations. There may be some masculinist denominations though, that would be churches that are hard lined patricarchal.

As for me, I'm a charismatic So. Baptist. Some of us ordain women and some of us don't. Most don't.

Weak men. LOL I've always thought the really weak men were the most threatened by women who are smart and skilled. Strong women don't threaten me.

Blaming men for the worlds problems. Hmmmm you mean that all our patriarchal societies with strong male leadership who warred against each other for who knows what reasons aren't responsible for the results of their strong male decisions? Come on. Of course men are primarily responsible for the leadership they exercise. When women exercise leadership they are responsible for the good and bad of it too. But we all know that know matter how many skilled and gifted female leaders there are, there will always be more male leaders than females. that means that males will always be primarily responsible for the ills of the world. Comes with the territory.

But really sw, let's knock off the personal attacks and get back to disagreeing about Bibilical interpretations. Calling me names just doesn't impress me nor does it make me question my years of research on the subject at hand.

No name calling here. But you are the one who wants to blame men for the worlds problems. As I said its a fact that women who have been political leaders can be just as cold and ruthless as any man. The problem is sin, not gender dude.

You want to buy into feminist propaganda, so be it.

As for feminists denominations I would include the Presby USA and the ELCA for sure. Its a tragedy what has happened to them since they began ordaining women in disregard for God's Word. Next up, homosexual ordination and the same poor arguments will be used to do that.

sw

There are no feminist denominations. Trying to negatively lable good Christians churches because of a few of their doctrines you don't like is not wise.

And as for men and leadership answer me this. Is a leader responsible for the effects of their leadership? Most would say yes. If 90 % of the world has male leaders, than male leaders are indeed responsible for 90% of the nations ills. Is Bush responsible for his bad decisions? Most would say yes. Then the man Bush is responsible for those bad decisions.

If it doesn't matter what gender they are, then why are we talking about how important gender is in leadership. I thought that the point was that only male leadership was worthy or capable according to a few people here. So, no I'm am not "blaming" men, but will certainly hold all leadership responsible for their bad decisions. And since of all leadership the world over, it is primarily men; then male leadership is primarily responsible for the ills of the world. If you cannot concede that men (and women) are responsible for what they do, then I'm worried for you.

You are joking right? Good Christian denominations do not ordain women. Nor do they ordain people of any gender who worship a feminine god called Sophia. Nor do they ordain anyone who does not believe in the resurrection of Christ. Therefore those are not "good Christian denominations".

Also men are ordained not because they are worthy as you say but because God has commanded it. And for the record I hold men in those feminist denominations responsible for what happened because they are the ones that opened the door for women to be ordained. They were weak and chose the world over God's Bible.

sw

[OopsMartin]

Shalom Ooops,

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels again?

I haven't forgotten a thing, thank you.

Please show me ONE Scripture in the NT where a woman was ordained as a pastor and we'll talk.

I asked you first. Show me one Scripture where a male pastor was ordained a pastor. Really, I'm interested. You might find one.

[Vickilynn]

Excerpt from CARM

CARM: It is not possible for a woman to possess every spiritual gift that a man possesses. A woman cannot be a father. Furthermore, the spiritual gift of being an elder/pastor is something only the male is called to per divine revelation. The Bible says that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2). Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'. It is God who gives gifts to the Church and one of the gifts is the pastor/elder. By definition, a pastor is an elder.

Second, let's take a look at God's word concerning eldership. We must know what God's word says specifically about pastoring/eldership before we draw our conclusions. (We have provided an outline of information on eldership at the end of this paper from which the following is extracted.)

1. The Term "Elder"

2. The Greek term is presbuteros and depending on context means elder, an old man, a leader in the church. The term is used. It is used of the elder of two persons (Luke 15:25, or more, John 8:9); of a person advanced in age (Acts 2:17; in Heb. 11:2); of the forefathers in Israel (Matt. 15:2; Mark 7:3,5); of members of the Sanhedrin (Matt. 16:21; 26:47); of those who managed public affairs in the various cities (Luke 7:3); of those who were the heads or leaders of the tribes and families, as of the seventy who helped Moses (Num. 11:16; Deut. 27:1). This included: Regarding the Office:

1. The pastor is an elder who preaches and/or teaches (1 Tim. 5:17).

1. The pastor (elder) is to equip the body of Christ (Eph. 4:11-13).

2. Must be a man (1 Tim. 2:9-13).

1. All uses of "elder" are in the masculine except for 1 Tim. 5:2 where it means older women.

3. The Responsibilities of Elders in the NT Church:

1. Must shepherd the flock (1 Peter 5:2).

2. They have the tasks of teaching (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5,9).

3. They have the tasks of acting as judges (Acts 15:2,6,22-29; 16:4).

4. Qualifications for an elder

1. Must be above reproach (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2)

2. Husband of one wife (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2).

3. Household must be in order with children who believe (Titus 1:6 ;1 Tim. 3:4).

4. Not a new convert (1 Tim. 3:6).

5. Self controlled and temperate (Titus 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:2).

6. Honorable, hospitable, seeking good (Titus 1:7).

7. Have a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:7).

8. Able to exhort (teach) sound doctrine (Titus 1:9; 1 Tim. 3:2).

9. Able to refute false teaching (Titus 1:9).

Important: Please take special note of section two outlined above where the declaration from God's Word is that the pastor/elder is to be male and that the elder is one who teaches. A pastor of a church stands in the pulpit, the place of authority and teaches from God's word. By nature, the teaching of God's word, in the pulpit, is an authoritative act. This is why it is to be done by an elder who is appointed in the church. Let's look further into God's word.

1 Peter 5:1-3, "Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.

1.

In 1 Peter 5:1-3, every occurrence of the word "elder(s) is in the masculine form in the Greek.

2.

The elder is to shepherd the flock. A pastor is a shepherd.

3.

The elder/pastor oversees the flock.

4.

Therefore, the pastor is an elder of the church.

Since God has declared the elder is to be the husband of one wife (at the very least a male), it is not possible for a woman to hold this position.

[OopsMartin]

Let's get down to the nitty gritty dude. Which of the feminine denominations are you with? And yes, your statement reflected bias against males whether you are one or not. But then again many weak men in feminist denominations have decided to allow women to take over their church just like you. That is essentially how it happened. And based on your prior post, blaming men for the world's problems, apparently you have bought into their feminine world view. Step up to the plate and be a man and take your church back.

sw

Well dude, I don't know any feminist denominations. There may be some masculinist denominations though, that would be churches that are hard lined patricarchal.

As for me, I'm a charismatic So. Baptist. Some of us ordain women and some of us don't. Most don't.

Weak men. LOL I've always thought the really weak men were the most threatened by women who are smart and skilled. Strong women don't threaten me.

Blaming men for the worlds problems. Hmmmm you mean that all our patriarchal societies with strong male leadership who warred against each other for who knows what reasons aren't responsible for the results of their strong male decisions? Come on. Of course men are primarily responsible for the leadership they exercise. When women exercise leadership they are responsible for the good and bad of it too. But we all know that know matter how many skilled and gifted female leaders there are, there will always be more male leaders than females. that means that males will always be primarily responsible for the ills of the world. Comes with the territory.

But really sw, let's knock off the personal attacks and get back to disagreeing about Bibilical interpretations. Calling me names just doesn't impress me nor does it make me question my years of research on the subject at hand.

No name calling here. But you are the one who wants to blame men for the worlds problems. As I said its a fact that women who have been political leaders can be just as cold and ruthless as any man. The problem is sin, not gender dude.

You want to buy into feminist propaganda, so be it.

As for feminists denominations I would include the Presby USA and the ELCA for sure. Its a tragedy what has happened to them since they began ordaining women in disregard for God's Word. Next up, homosexual ordination and the same poor arguments will be used to do that.

sw

There are no feminist denominations. Trying to negatively lable good Christians churches because of a few of their doctrines you don't like is not wise.

And as for men and leadership answer me this. Is a leader responsible for the effects of their leadership? Most would say yes. If 90 % of the world has male leaders, than male leaders are indeed responsible for 90% of the nations ills. Is Bush responsible for his bad decisions? Most would say yes. Then the man Bush is responsible for those bad decisions.

If it doesn't matter what gender they are, then why are we talking about how important gender is in leadership. I thought that the point was that only male leadership was worthy or capable according to a few people here. So, no I'm am not "blaming" men, but will certainly hold all leadership responsible for their bad decisions. And since of all leadership the world over, it is primarily men; then male leadership is primarily responsible for the ills of the world. If you cannot concede that men (and women) are responsible for what they do, then I'm worried for you.

You are joking right? Good Christian denominations do not ordain women. Nor do they ordain people of any gender who worship a feminine god called Sophia. Nor do they ordain anyone who does not believe in the resurrection of Christ. Therefore those are not "good Christian denominations".

Also men are ordained not because they are worthy as you say but because God has commanded it. And for the record I hold men in those feminist denominations responsible for what happened because they are the ones that opened the door for women to be ordained. They were weak and chose the world over God's Bible.

sw

Get a grip. Disagreeing on female leaders does not paint an entire denomination pink. Those INDIVIDUALS who worship a feminine god called Sophia are not true Christians. And I also would hold any leader male or female responsible for allowing such to derail a congregation.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Ooops,

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels again?

I haven't forgotten a thing, thank you.

Please show me ONE Scripture in the NT where a woman was ordained as a pastor and we'll talk.

I asked you first. Show me one Scripture where a male pastor was ordained a pastor. Really, I'm interested. You might find one.

Shalom,

No thank you. You're making another topic about the ordination. I don't care to play.

The bottom line is the Scriptures do not, ever, authorize women as pastors. That's hard to get around. That's my position.

Men were however chosen, selected, authorized, called to be leaders over the Body. There were only men Apostles. These men were called, selected, chosen by Jesus.

[Iryssa]

1. The Term "Elder"

2. The Greek term is presbuteros and depending on context means elder, an old man, a leader in the church. The term is used. It is used of the elder of two persons (Luke 15:25, or more, John 8:9); of a person advanced in age (Acts 2:17; in Heb. 11:2); of the forefathers in Israel (Matt. 15:2; Mark 7:3,5); of members of the Sanhedrin (Matt. 16:21; 26:47); of those who managed public affairs in the various cities (Luke 7:3); of those who were the heads or leaders of the tribes and families, as of the seventy who helped Moses (Num. 11:16; Deut. 27:1). This included: Regarding the Office:

1. The pastor is an elder who preaches and/or teaches (1 Tim. 5:17).

1. The pastor (elder) is to equip the body of Christ (Eph. 4:11-13).

2. Must be a man (1 Tim. 2:9-13).

1. All uses of "elder" are in the masculine except for 1 Tim. 5:2 where it means older women.

3. The Responsibilities of Elders in the NT Church:

1. Must shepherd the flock (1 Peter 5:2).

2. They have the tasks of teaching (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5,9).

3. They have the tasks of acting as judges (Acts 15:2,6,22-29; 16:4).

4. Qualifications for an elder

1. Must be above reproach (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2)

2. Husband of one wife (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2).

3. Household must be in order with children who believe (Titus 1:6 ;1 Tim. 3:4).

4. Not a new convert (1 Tim. 3:6).

5. Self controlled and temperate (Titus 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:2).

6. Honorable, hospitable, seeking good (Titus 1:7).

7. Have a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:7).

8. Able to exhort (teach) sound doctrine (Titus 1:9; 1 Tim. 3:2).

9. Able to refute false teaching (Titus 1:9).

I was very confused by this list's numbering system...until I hit "reply" and saw the indentations as they're supposed to look...is it just my browser that does this, or is anyone else's being annoying and eliminating indentations like that in posts?

[firehill]

1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims,

[Scarletprayers]

1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims, "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created (1 Timothy 2:13) and the way in which sin entered the world (2 Timothy 2:14).

I found this comical. Sin entered the world through the male's rebellion so ordain them!

So now your mocking God's word.

[patricia1]

1. The Term "Elder"

2. The Greek term is presbuteros and depending on context means elder, an old man, a leader in the church. The term is used. It is used of the elder of two persons (Luke 15:25, or more, John 8:9); of a person advanced in age (Acts 2:17; in Heb. 11:2); of the forefathers in Israel (Matt. 15:2; Mark 7:3,5); of members of the Sanhedrin (Matt. 16:21; 26:47); of those who managed public affairs in the various cities (Luke 7:3); of those who were the heads or leaders of the tribes and families, as of the seventy who helped Moses (Num. 11:16; Deut. 27:1). This included: Regarding the Office:

1. The pastor is an elder who preaches and/or teaches (1 Tim. 5:17).

1. The pastor (elder) is to equip the body of Christ (Eph. 4:11-13).

2. Must be a man (1 Tim. 2:9-13).

1. All uses of "elder" are in the masculine except for 1 Tim. 5:2 where it means older women.

3. The Responsibilities of Elders in the NT Church:

1. Must shepherd the flock (1 Peter 5:2).

2. They have the tasks of teaching (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5,9).

3. They have the tasks of acting as judges (Acts 15:2,6,22-29; 16:4).

4. Qualifications for an elder

1. Must be above reproach (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2)

2. Husband of one wife (Titus 1:6; 1 Tim. 3:2).

3. Household must be in order with children who believe (Titus 1:6 ;1 Tim. 3:4).

4. Not a new convert (1 Tim. 3:6).

5. Self controlled and temperate (Titus 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:2).

6. Honorable, hospitable, seeking good (Titus 1:7).

7. Have a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:7).

8. Able to exhort (teach) sound doctrine (Titus 1:9; 1 Tim. 3:2).

9. Able to refute false teaching (Titus 1:9).

I was very confused by this list's numbering system...until I hit "reply" and saw the indentations as they're supposed to look...is it just my browser that does this, or is anyone else's being annoying and eliminating indentations like that in posts?

yup( . or the wife of one husband.....) so where do five fold minstry fit in. The pastor does it all. ?!