Baptism?

[Guest shiloh357]

However, we must still address Acts 2:38 in some intelligent manner, not just toss out the interpretation ALL the early Church Fathers believed, and not offer something meaningful in its place.

It has been addressed intellegently by those who are opposed to the way it has been butchered to support the idea that it is required for salvation. Unfortunately, those who want to impose their legalism upon the rest of us refuse sound doctrine and rather prefer to believe false teachings.

What they taught or believed is irrelevant. They are not infalliable, and while you may choose to appeal to them, I appeal to what the Word says in light of itself.

Until just the last 400 hundred years at the most, the whole Church believed that the Holy Spirit was imparted at baptism. They regarded baptism as so important that in some places, new converts had to take THREE YEARS of instruction, and prove their Christian lives before they could be baptized. (Of course, if someone were at death's door during this period, exceptions were made, but the three year rule was ordinary.)

Yeah and I suppose if you accidentally died of a heart attack or somehow died unexpectantly, you were just out of luck, huh? If someone didn't make it to the baptismal in time, God turned them away that the pearly gates. What a crock!!!

Some might put them in a different order, but I suggest these:

1. The Scripture itself.

2. The Fathers

3. What I believe the Spirit is speaking to me.

4. The standard Commentaries.

5. Reason

The great Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura has been so misunderstood and so misapplied by people of the last two centuries; who really have a mindset deeply infected by the 'Enlightenment'; that it has come to really mean a complete, solipsist dedication to what "I The Enlightened Modern Man think (let all former-- and therefore lesser--humans bow)." Most people who think they are relying on sola scriptura are really imposing Western reasoning on the Scripture, so that their AUTHORITES look like this:

1. Reason

2. The Scripture itself.

Not only is this upside down, it ignores many other channels which ought to be given weight. In case you haven't noticed, I simply DETEST the (bankrupt) intellectual arrogance of the 'Enlightenment'.

Yeah, well I detest putting what the anti-Semitic church fathers say above the Holy Spirit. Give me the Holy Spirit over Augustine anytime. The fact that your list orders the words of the Fathers over the leading of the Holy Spirit automatically discredits your position as it relates to water immersion.

You take the anti-Semitic Church fathers and their teachings, I'll take Jesus.

[Guest Calamity]

Calamity,

what is your understanding of the plan of salvation?

stevehut, I'm done with this thread now.

Calamity,

Now that you've told me that I am wrong, it's only fair to tell me what you believe is right. What is your understanding of the plan of salvation?

I'm Baptist, so you can easily figure out what I believe. Like I said, I'm done with this thread, though, because it's going nowhere, and seems like the tone has changed. I'm not one to argue, so will leave saying we have to agree to disagree on this.

[1ptr29citizen]

It has been addressed intellegently by those who are opposed to the way it has been butchered to support the idea that it is required for salvation.

Who exactly is doing the butchering, when the meaning of it is being changed from the interpretation of the verse for 1500 years of straight agreement?

Yeah and I suppose if you accidentally died of a heart attack or somehow died unexpectantly, you were just out of luck, huh? If someone didn't make it to the baptismal in time, God turned them away that the pearly gates. What a crock!!!

What's it matter?! Why toil away over thoughts like this, to try and justify your own salvation? I mean, Jesus told no lie when he said that belief and baptism are BOTH for salvation in Mark 16:16. And since the idea that baptism is "non-physically in the HS" is an idea that came-about, and obviously ALL came-about doctrines are wrong (seeing as how they were made after the Bible was written, and therefore going against Galatians 1:6-9), then wouldn't that make the thought of baptism NOT being in water in Christ wrong?

You take the anti-Semitic Church fathers and their teachings, I'll take Jesus.

Me too, I'll take Jesus as well. And seeing as how BAPTISM is how we take Jesus according to Galatians 3:27 and that its BAPTISM that saves us BY Jesus according to 1 Peter 3:21, then in that case I'll take baptism IN Christ, however that doesn't nullify the fact that baptism simply is done IN water.

And to the idea of baptism NOT being a part of the gospel, too bad it is eh? Acts 8, Phillip preached the gospel to the eunuch. After the eunuch heard the gospel, the eunuch saw water. The eunuch says, "hey I need to be baptized" and so Phillip baptizes him, "going down into" the water and "coming up out of it." So since the eunuch heard the gospel, and then asked to be baptized, its clear as anything that baptism was a part of the gospel Phillip preached to the eunuch. Otherwise the eunuch would have said, "hey look there's water! That's a funny little liquid, serving no importance at all to Christ, because you didn't include water in the gospel." No he didn't say that. Instead, immediately after hearing the gospel he said, "Look here is water, why shouldn't I baptized?" And he should have been, and he was. Obviously, baptism was included in the good news.

[other one]

Yeah and I suppose if you accidentally died of a heart attack or somehow died unexpectantly, you were just out of luck, huh? If someone didn't make it to the baptismal in time, God turned them away that the pearly gates. What a crock!!!

What's it matter?! Why toil away over thoughts like this, to try and justify your own salvation?

Don't take this lightly for it happened to a very good highschool friend when I was a junior in highschool. It tore many of us apart and from the inflexability of the leaders of my church I left the church I was attending and for a great many years I simply didn't want anything to do with Jesus or God or any part of it that would send someone to hell because he died in between confessing Jesus as his lord and baptism. The next 3 to 4 years of my life I'd give most anything to have back.

I have not trusted anyones theology since and never will. That questioning will put you into a position that most churches that I would be comfortable with are not comfortable with me so we don't go to church anywhere.

Don't take that lightly for it does matter....... it matters a lot.

I am not saying that it is ok not to be baptized for Jesus instructed us to do so.... along with a lot of other things we we must do or not do if we have really made him our lord.

[Leonard]

Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

So Shiloh must make the appeal to 'anti-semitism'. Sort of proves you've lost the argument doesn't it? Your need to start hurling invective instead of making rational argumentation is backhanded testimony to the acuity of your opponent!

You have 'raised your volume when you should have reinforced your argument'!

Come, come my boy, this old grey-beard won't hurt you! Calm yourself a little.

On the other hand Proverbs does say: "Answer not a fool according to his own folly lest thou be like him. Answer a fool according to his own folly lest he be wise in his own conceit. A bit for horses, a bridle for a mule's mouth, and a rod for a fool's back."

Now according to the Leonard's Parallel Paraphrased Paramount Commentary, this means: "There's really no dealing with a fool, so just beat him 'til he goes away."

Sooooo... Take THAT, Shiloh! And THAT! and THAT! and THAT!! Is he still around here? Why you little........whack! Whack!! Whack!!!

I hope this 'virtual trip to the woodshed' was sufficient punishment.

With a blessing,

Leonard a sinner

[Leonard]

Postus Scripti: I was going to tell you 'this is going to hurt me a lot more than it's going to hurt you, but we all know that would be a lie....Heck! I feel much better!!!

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE 

Yeah and I suppose if you accidentally died of a heart attack or somehow died unexpectantly, you were just out of luck, huh? If someone didn't make it to the baptismal in time, God turned them away that the pearly gates. What a crock!!!

What's it matter?! Why toil away over thoughts like this, to try and justify your own salvation? I mean, Jesus told no lie when he said that belief and baptism are BOTH for salvation in Mark 16:16. And since the idea that baptism is "non-physically in the HS" is an idea that came-about, and obviously ALL came-about doctrines are wrong (seeing as how they were made after the Bible was written, and therefore going against Galatians 1:6-9), then wouldn't that make the thought of baptism NOT being in water in Christ wrong?

Why does it matter? Because you say that water immersion is required for salvation, and supposedly there was a time when even after believing in Jesus one had to wait years before getting baptized. So, if one had to wait, and died before getting to the baptism, this dumb early church rule would have sentenced that person to Hell. Making someone wait to do something that is critical to their their eternal destiny and risk them dying before having access is immoral and proof enough that the those who did teach such nonsense have no real credibility.

So Shiloh must make the appeal to 'anti-semitism'. Sort of proves you've lost the argument doesn't it? Your need to start hurling invective instead of making rational argumentation is backhanded testimony to the acuity of your opponent!

No it is nothing of the sort. The argument goes to credibility. I am not hurly invective, I am stating historical fact. Most of the early church fathers were anti-Semites. I use the anti-Semitism to point out that the early church fathers have no credibility in spiritual matters. Since many of them cursed the Jews, they obviously did not the spiritual sensibilities in other areas either. The Holy Spirit does not abide with those who taught/teach hatred of other races, especially the Jews.

[1ptr29citizen]

Because you say that water immersion is required for salvation, and supposedly there was a time when even after believing in Jesus one had to wait years before getting baptized.

Why?

this dumb early church rule would have sentenced that person to Hell.

Who cares. It's a dumb early church rule that is entirely non-Biblical, and is one of those "came about" rules I spoke of it earlier. Apostles pass away, whose there to tell them that what they're doing isn't Biblical? No one, so why not make up some stupid rule about waiting. Did the jailer and his household in Acts 16 wait to be baptized? No, in fact scripture tells us they got up to be "immediately" baptized after they had believed, then washed the apostles wounds. But as soon after they had washed their wounds, they were baptized. Immediately. 3 year rule? Not a chance.

I use the anti-Semitism to point out that the early church fathers have no credibility in spiritual matters.

I agree, if the founding fathers of the Church said non-inspired things, they are simply reasonings possibly without scriptural back-up. However, please let's keep in mind that it IS however, IMPOSSIBLE for a "come about" idea to be true, considering it "came about" 1500 years after the resurrection of the Savior. Earlier isn't always necessarily more correct, but 1500 years after instruction is definately inaccurate.

[Leonard]

Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Well, there are lots of 'born again' people in the churches who are still full of bitterness, anger, invective, and hate. They are certainly not what I consider Christians.

None so blind as he who refuses sight.

Sorrowfully,

Leonard, a sinner

[Catsmeow]

Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Thank you Leonard...you speak for me here. Count me in...

Catsmeow, another sinner saved by the mercy of Christ Jesus...

I have no clue about this baptism thing...it's not worth debating. All I know is that I was dead and now I'm alive; was lost and now I'm found.

I guess beyond that...nothing else seems to matter.