Is Jesus Yahweh?

[WayneB]

One more thing...

John 8:24 "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

There is so much riding on the question...

[sweetycakes]

One more thing...

John 8:24 "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

There is so much riding on the question...

Absolutely. It's all or nothing.

JESUS is all or nothing!!

[sweetycakes]

One more thing...

John 8:24 "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

There is so much riding on the question...

Absolutely. It's all or nothing.

JESUS is all or nothing!!

And why is Jesus 'all or nothing'?

Well, at one time, He asked His disciples, 'Who do men say that I am?'

Some answered.....a great man, a great teacher, a prophet.....

Jesus Himself claimed to be the Son of the Most High God.

If He was not who He said He is.........then He is none of the others, either.

If He lied, he is not a 'good man, or a prophet, or a great teacher'.

The only conclusion we can draw is that either He is a total imposter..........

Or precisely what He says He is!

[Ovedya]

Jesus Himself said that He's God.

I and my Father are one. (John 10:30 KJV)

Hardly. John also records, "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name

[Guest rekrul]

Wayne B & Rebmilc, you are not reading the context. John 10:33, yes, the Jews say that he was making himself God, however, Jesus settles the matter in verse 36, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? Jesus correcting them means something here.

Ovedya, you said concerning the statement at John 10:33, "Actually it means that they are one intrinsically. The believers are not just united - not just one - in thought, practice, principal or deed, they are one intrinsically in the Spirit, as members of the Body of Christ." The Greek word that Jesus used, "one" (hen) is the same word Paul used in 1 Cor. 3:6,8, literally meaning"one (thing)," indicating oneness in cooperation.

And good 'ol FresnoJoe, you're good at listing scriptures, find that one that mentions Jesus, God and Holy Ghost as one and yet trinity.

[WayneB]

Wayne B & Rebmilc, you are not reading the context. John 10:33, yes, the Jews say that he was making himself God, however, Jesus settles the matter in verse 36, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? Jesus correcting them means something here.

Jesus wasn't correcting them. He was repeating His claim. Go further and Jesus said, "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." vs 37,38

How did they respond?

Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. vs 39

Actually friend, it is you who have taken Scripture out of context. You seem to ignore the culture of the Hebrew and the TRUTH as evident in their response to Jesus Christ. After Jesus had enetrtained questions from the Pharisees and their scribes, He asked them all one simple question found in Matthew chapter 22...

"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?"

"The son of David," they replied.

He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,

" 'The Lord said to my Lord:

"Sit at my right hand

until I put your enemies

under your feet." '

If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?"

These learned men who were well versed in ancient Scripture could not answer Him. Can you?

[Ovedya]

Ovedya, you said concerning the statement at John 10:33, "Actually it means that they are one intrinsically. The believers are not just united - not just one - in thought, practice, principal or deed, they are one intrinsically in the Spirit, as members of the Body of Christ." The Greek word that Jesus used, "one" (hen) is the same word Paul used in 1 Cor. 3:6,8, literally meaning"one (thing)," indicating oneness in cooperation.

The verse is not John 10:33, it's 17:21-23:

That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me."

Context determines the meaning. This oneness shared by the believers is the same intrinsic oneness shared between the Father and the Son. It is not merely a matter of cooperation in work or thought. It is an intrinsic mingling between God and man, and the believers in the body of Christ together.

[BurnForChrist]

Wayne B,

Do I deny that Jesus was divine? Absolutely not! He was divine. Think of all the things Jesus did and soon will do. Philippians says he was in the form of God, (which means something totally different than the trinitarian based translation of the New Living Translation) and counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped. That scripture makes sence if he is the Son of God because he proceeded from God, that makes him divine. However, not Almighty God.

A formost truth of Christianity is that of the ransom of Jesus. Wayne, do you deny the ransom? Did the co-eternal God Jesus died or didn't he? If he died, he is not eternal. If he didn't die, then there was no ransom. Why did Jesus, being God, have to learn obedience? Read John 6:38.

At John 20:17 Jesus told Mary Magdalene to tell the disciples: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." And Jesus continued to refer to Him as such even in the last book of the Bible, after he was glorified.

My God does not die. (Habakkuk 1:12) 1/3rd of your God did, according to your teachings.

Jesus did not claim to be God, infact, 1 Corinthians 11:3 says that the head of Christ is God. Co-equal?

Jesus is my Savior. He is my ransomer, my Lord and redeemer. King. He died as a ransom for all mankind. I am not trying to upset anyone or glorify myself. I simply wish to help those sincerely want to know answers from God's Holy Bible. I aim to please God, not this privately funded and privately owned message board.

I hope that clears things up for you from my end, why don't you explain to my Wayne who Jesus is to you, with scriptures.

Jesus was 100% Man and 100% GOD. He prayed to the father to show that he was still a man, and Paul calls him not only a man but also GOD:

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."

And, Romans 9:5 "of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen."

Revelation 1:8

[MrLuke]

And not forgetting this too:

Rev. 1

17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Only God the Father has ever been called the first and last - meaning eternal, He was never created. But The Father has never died, yet here we have the first and the last declaring that He has died but now lived forever!

Jesus is God.

[Rebmilc]

Wayne B & Rebmilc, you are not reading the context. John 10:33, yes, the Jews say that he was making himself God, however, Jesus settles the matter in verse 36, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? Jesus correcting them means something here.

Ovedya, you said concerning the statement at John 10:33, "Actually it means that they are one intrinsically. The believers are not just united - not just one - in thought, practice, principal or deed, they are one intrinsically in the Spirit, as members of the Body of Christ." The Greek word that Jesus used, "one" (hen) is the same word Paul used in 1 Cor. 3:6,8, literally meaning"one (thing)," indicating oneness in cooperation.

And good 'ol FresnoJoe, you're good at listing scriptures, find that one that mentions Jesus, God and Holy Ghost as one and yet trinity.

Capital punishment for the jews was only for serious sins, i.e Blasphemy. adultery, disobedience to parents ...

saying that you had a pre-existence isn't blasphemy. However,claiming to be one with God is quite different.

John 10:31 is a referencing back to John 8:59. John 10:31 says "The Jews took up stones Again to stone him" This time they gave the reason why. They said that Jesus was claiming to be God.

As for Jesus claiming to be the son of God....I refer you back to my posting to mutzrein on this thread. If Jesus is the son of God he is saying that he shares the same nature as God, He is God by Nature. see Galatians 4:8. Jesus is not only the son of God He is God the son.(not a god has you have it in your new world mis-translation) The jews He was speaking to understood that, why don't you? It is quite simple really. That is the context. As for you saying "Jesus settled the matter in verse 36" then why does it say in verse 39 "They sought Again to take Him"? Obviously it wasn't settled for them.

rekrul, they understood perfectly His claims and what these claims meant. I am glad that you agree "He was making Himself God" .

As for the use of (Hen) in 1 Corinthians 3:6-8 to say that this indicates "Oneness in Cooperation", In John, I have never seen such convoluted reasoning. There is absolutely nothing here to suggest that John was indicating "oneness in co-operation", it is a different context. Neither is there anything in the passage in question in John to suggest that John was speaking about "oneness in cooperation" the whole context of the passage in John is that Jesus claimed "I and the Father are one". I could also use some other instances of (Hen). I.e... ONE JOT Matt 5:18, or ONE MILE Matt 5:41, or ONE CUBIT Matt 6:27. or ONE SHEEP Matt 12:11. none of them claiming "Oneness in cooperation" THE CONTEXT DETERMINES THE MEANING.

In 2hrs time I fly off for a week' vacation But I look forwards to taking up this discussion when I come back a week on Sunday.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Rebmilc