Slave To Righteousness

[tsth]

1 Cor. 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

In His Love,

Suzanne

No offense Suzanne, but you really are starting to remind me of every bad Hollywood caricature of a Christian I see on television and the movies, oblivious to everything around them, smugly quoting the Bible and them strutting off as if they have really done something great. For what its worth.

sw

Why would you state "no offense Suzanne" when THAT is exactly what your heart intends? Because I honor God's Word above the opinions of man, I am somehow a caricature? I know who my Master Is, and I don't try to speak things that are "appealing" to the flesh of men, but things that are Truth. God's Word is Truth, so how can this be construed as a "bad" thing??? Sometimes, people who claim to be Christian, and yet are put off because of the posting of Scripture, make absolutely no sense.

I am grieved.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Anyone can string verses together like lights on a Christmas tree and make the Bible say whatever they want it to say.

And then there are some who unscrew a few of those lights, and the whole tree becomes dark.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

[Fiosh]

The problem is not with the Scriptures, but the way you are handling them.

Amen.

[Fiosh]

Anyone can string verses together like lights on a Christmas tree and make the Bible say whatever they want it to say.

And then there are some who unscrew a few of those lights, and the whole tree becomes dark.

In His Truth,

Suzanne

When one goes out they all go out????

[Neopatriarch]

Slave to Righteousness

And having been set free from sin,

you became slaves of righteousness.

Romans 6:18

Before you were a Christian you were a slave, in bondage to sin. Even when you did not want to sin, you were unable to do otherwise (Rom. 7:15-24).

It seems to me that Romans 7:15-25 is talking about the struggle of a Christian rather than someone before he became a Christian.

In verse 22 Paul says, "For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being." This doesn't sound like an unregenerate man speaking because in 8:7 Paul says "the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot."

Verse 25 doesn't sound like an unregenerate man either:

25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

How many unbelievers thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord?

When God saved you, He freed you from sin, but you remained a slave. Now, rather than being bound to sin, you are bound to righteousness. In every area of your life you are obligated to do what honors God.

Sin no longer has dominion. We have victory in Jesus Christ. But this doesn't mean we no longer struggle with sin. We are continually falling short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), but "if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)

We are a work in progress. The process of sanctification isn't finished yet so I haven't attained sinless perfection nor have I attained a perfection of deeds. I live an examined life and it seems to me that the taint of sin touches practically everything.

A. W. Pink wrote (http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Miscellaneous/romans_7.htm):

This moan, “O wretched man that I am,” expresses the normal experience of the Christian, and any Christian who does not so moan is in an abnormal and unhealthy state spiritually. The man who does not utter this cry daily is either so out of communion with Christ, or so ignorant of the teaching of Scripture, or so deceived about his actual condition, that he knows not the corruptions of his own heart and the abject failure of his own life.

The one who bows to the solemn and searching teaching of God’s Word, the one who there learns the awful wreckage which sin has wrought in the human constitution, the one who sees the exalted standard of holiness which God has set before us, cannot fail to discover what a vile wretch he is. If he is given to behold how far short he falls of attaining to God’s standard; if, in the light of the divine sanctuary, he discovers how little he resembles the Christ of God; then will he find this language most suited to express his godly sorrow. If God reveals to him the coldness of his love, the pride of his heart, the wanderings of his mind, the evil that defiles his godliest acts, he will cry, “O wretched man that I am.” If he is conscious of his ingratitude, of how little he appreciates God’s daily mercies; if he marks the absence of that deep and genuine fervor which ought ever to characterize his praise and worship of that One who is “glorious in holiness;” if he recognizes that sinful spirit of rebellion, which so often causes him to murmur or at least chafe against the dispensations of God in his daily life; if he attempts to tabulate not only the sins of commission but the sins of omission, of which he is daily guilty, he will indeed cry, “O wretched man that I am.”

Nor is it only the “back-slidden” Christian, now convicted, who will mourn thus. The one who is truly in communion with Christ, will also emit this groan, and emit it daily and hourly. Yea, the closer he draws to Christ, the more will he discover the corruptions of his old nature, and the more earnestly will he long to be delivered from it. It is not until the sunlight floods a room that the grime and dust are fully revealed. So, it is only as we really come into the presence of Him who is the light, that we are made aware of the filth and wickedness which indwell us, and which defile every part of our being. And such a discovery will make each of us cry, “O wretched man that I am!”

-Neopatriarch

Edited August 7, 2007 by Neopatriarch

[EricH]

Saints,

Please keep this on issues not personalities lest when taliing about righteousness we treat each other in an unrigteous manner

[Guest shiloh357]

Yeah, now see, I would not do this. Anyone can string verses together like lights on a Christmas tree and make the Bible say whatever they want it to say. Not all of these verses are addressing the same subject matter and they way you have arranged them makes it appear that justification comes by works. Just in the verses from Romans you present are three different lines of thought, and to make them appear as parallel is inaccurate on your part.

The problem is not with the Scriptures, but the way you are handling them.

So, why don't you go ahead and post exactly what you find wrong shiloh? You can make statements of how wrong it is, but unless you verify it, it really is just you making a claim.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Well I did that Suzanne. I explained that you are simply stringing verses together because you find the same word or two appearing in those verses. The way you have them arranged makes it appear that righteousness is attained by works.

Lets use the three verses from Romans you cited and that I referenced earlier:

Romans 1:32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Romans 1:32 is talking about pagans, who though they know the Judgment of God against their wickedness which Paul enumerated in verses 25-31, knowing that these things deserved the punishment of death from God's own hand, not only continued their wreckless abandon, but encouraged, inspired and approved of others in their commission of the same sins.

Romans 2:13 falls in to a context where Paul has created, for the purposes of debate and demonstration, an imaginary Jewish audience. He is making his case to Romans by anticipating the Jewish objections and answering them for the benefit of his Gentile readership. Paul is addressing the unfortunate and all too common Jewish pride in their traditions and pedigree.

In verse 13 Paul is addressing an issue that is still prevalent in Judaism today. In Judaism, it is believed that the greatest act of righteousness is the study of the Torah. They will spend hours upon hours a day pouring over Torah, Talumd, Shulcan Aruch the Midrash Rabbah, and other rabbinic writings. All of this constintutes in some measure, "Torah study." Jesus was addressing this issue with his enemies when he said, "Search the Scriptures for in them, you think you have eternal life. The Torah itself is seen as a tree of life and the study of it brings great merit.

Paul's argument was that it is not enough to hear or read the Torah if you are not going to practice it. Paul's point is that even if the Torah did bring eternal life, it would be in the practicing of it, not in the hearing of it. He makes his point in verses 14-26 that when the Gentiles who by nature do the things contained in the Torah will fare better in the judgment than a Jewish person who hears the Torah but fails to practice it.

Romans 8:4 is a third completely different line of thought as well and not only that but is part of sentence. You basically broke up a complete thought. Paul's point here in verses 3 and 4 is that what the law was powerless to do because it was weak by virtue of the flesh, God accomplished by sending his Son as a sin offering.

We have Jesus dwelling in us in the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is in us fulfilling the righteousness of the law! It is not up to me to fulfill God's righteousness. If I could I would not need Jesus in the first place.

Any works of rightesousness I do is not because I am seeking righteousness. Righteousness is already being fulfilled in me by Christ. It is His work in that he is performing and will continue to perform until the day of Christ. I don't seek rightouesness. I seek Christ.

So you have three lines of thought. One is addressing the open rebellioin of the irretrievably wicked, one is addressing ostentatious Jewish pride, and the third deals with the righteousness of God at work in the heart of the believer, which should be the wellspring from which flows our loving gratitude to Christ.

It is a matter of utilizing proper hermeneutics, which by the way, you use everyday.

You are treating as Parallel, a list of verses that are not truly parallel. Just because they contain some of the same words does not mean they are treating the words in the same way. Context always determines word usage (which is not the same thing as "word meaning"). Before posting a list of verses, it is important to make sure they are truly parallel and are addressing the same subject matter in the same way.

[tsth]

We have Jesus dwelling in us in the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is in us fulfilling the righteousness of the law! It is not up to me to fulfill God's righteousness. If I could I would not need Jesus in the first place.

I agree, but I will go one step further to say that His Grace enables to fulfill the righteousness that is Jesus working in us, to do those "good" works. These works do not save us, these works are the active fruits of righteousness, that are only performed thru His Power. This is where I think we differ. You do not see "righteousness" as an active process, that obviously produces works/fruit, whereas I do. (AND NO, I DID NOT SAY WE ARE SAVED BY WORKS!) I said our salvation is the working of His Power to produce what God desires, and that looks like "works" only because it is active. Just as the righteousness of Noah because of faith was proved out by his belief and obedience..........WHAT IF he had not built the ark? Would he have lived or perished?

Here is what Righteousness is to me with regard to the Scriptures. I feel this is a valid definition as to what grace can have power to do. (I know I'm repeating myself):

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

I am not in agreement with your assessment of Romans, as those words (you used to explain) were nowhere in the passages. It sounded as if you inserted your own/or someone else's theology in there with regard to what Paul's intent was. For those passages, I did not see any disclaimer inserting the intent of Paul.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

We have Jesus dwelling in us in the person of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is in us fulfilling the righteousness of the law! It is not up to me to fulfill God's righteousness. If I could I would not need Jesus in the first place.

I agree, but I will go one step further to say that His Grace enables to fulfill the righteousness that is Jesus working in us, to do those "good" works. These works do not save us, these works are the active fruits of righteousness, that are only performed thru His Power. This is where I think we differ. You do not see "righteousness" as an active process, that obviously produces works/fruit, whereas I do. (AND NO, I DID NOT SAY WE ARE SAVED BY WORKS!) I said our salvation is the working of His Power to produce what God desires, and that looks like "works" only because it is active. Just as the righteousness of Noah because of faith was proved out by his belief and obedience..........WHAT IF he had not built the ark? Would he have lived or perished?

Well, we are not called or commanded to "fulfill" the righteousness of the Law. Our works are not a fulfillment of God's rightesouness, but the outworking of His righteousness fulfilled in us.

I did not say you claimed that we are saved by works. I said that the way you arranged those verses gave the impression of believing that righteseous was attained by works. And why did I get that impression? Because you seem intent upon peppering us with verses, but not explaining what you see in those verses until you are badgerred to do so. Either you are oblivious to how frustrating your evasive approach is, or you are just not serious enough about this conversation to care.

As for righteousness being an active process... I don't see that as the process. Righteousness, as used in the New Testament with respect to our standing before God, is a legal term which means that God has declared you to be in "right standing" with Him. It is not a process at all, but a legal standing wherein you are declared as innocent as if Adam had never sinned.

We are commanded to do works of righteousness. Works of righteousness means those works fitting a righteous person or in another vernacular, "good deeds."

Christ is in us fufilling that standard and we are in Him. It is what I referred to earlier as "positional justification." The process which produces fruit is sanctification. That is the process by which are being constantly changed and molded more and more into the image of Christ. It involves the removal and setting aside of old habits, desires, thoughts and ways of living in the process of dedicating ourselves more and more each day to Christ.

I am not in agreement with your assessment of Romans, as those words (you used to explain) were nowhere in the passages. It sounded as if you inserted your own/or someone else's theology in there with regard to what Paul's intent was. For those passages, I did not see any disclaimer inserting the intent of Paul.

I am not inserting theology, I am simply following Paul's line of thought, and placing those verses inside the line of thought they originally came from. The subject matter and context speak for themselves. You can live in denial if you want, but I defy you to show that I am amiss at any point.

Suzanne, it is foolish to read the Bible and think that you can just grab any verse you want and apply to any subject matter you see fit. Responsible handling of the Scriptures involves paying attention to the object the author has in view. It involves trying to understand what the author intends to convery.

I am sorry, but just thinking you can string verses together to "prove" a point, not spiritual; it is just an irresponsible handling of the Word of God and leads to confusion (which does not come from God), and I clearly demonstrated that. If you cannot demonstrate otherwise, then I stand correct and unrefuted.

[tsth]

I did not say you claimed that we are saved by works. I said that the way you arranged those verses gave the impression of believing that righteseous was attained by works. And why did I get that impression? Because you seem intent upon peppering us with verses, but not explaining what you see in those verses until you are badgerred to do so. Either you are oblivious to how frustrating your evasive approach is, or you are just not serious enough about this conversation to care.

Shiloh, It's just that you wear me out. I don't post Scriptures to begin a massive surgery on them....because to me, they say what they say. It's NOT as difficult as you seem to make it(reading the Words of God). If so, then everybody would need you to interpret, and they don't. The Holy Spirit has enabled us, as Christians, to grow in understanding of God's Word, and to be able to read the Scriptures, WORD for WORD. It's not some big gymnastical feat, to understand them. They mean what they say. And to say you agree with the instruction on righteousness AND THEN to constantly tear apart someone who's heart wants to encourage others to take hold of the power and righteousness of Christ, is so disheartening.

Does every posting need to be an intellectual contest? Do you encourage by tearing apart the promotion of righteousness? How much damage does it do to the WHOLE of the thread.....when you say you agree, but then immediately proceed to destroy?

Do you agree in Christians walking in righteousness? If so, then help to support, but please, please don't damage the whole testimony, in order to show how much better you believe you have studied. If the Scriptures could not be read and understood with regard to the meaning of "righteousness" then I guess we all need to go back to the days of the priests ONLY being able to read the Word, and the people being without It.

In conclusion, can't you admit that believers need to walk in the righteousness of Christ? And encourage others in this message, rather than strengthening those who rebel against it?

In His Love,

Suzanne