Oppression

[firehill]

Jesus did make that point about greatest and least after the disciples were arguing over their places in Heaven. I think there will be an order but not what people expect from an earth's viewpoint.

That I agree with 100%

I agree 2.

[st. Worm]

Women throughout history have been the most oppressed and abused group. Female oppression has even surpassed the oppression of slaves and races thus making females the lowest immovable rung on every hierarchical ladder in history. Even today the abuses are staggering and unmentionable in some societies.

If is unfortunate when Christian history has embraced such oppressions. The witch-hunts are an unmemorable blotch on Catholic history. Today I personally consider the complementarian mantra of "equal but different" to be another blotch on Christian history. While some have taken emphasis on the idea of equality, too many have taken the emphasis on difference.

The problem with stating that one group is equal in value to another group but because of inherent differences must always be subordinated (restricted in roles) is that subordination by reason of unchangeable factors (race, color, sex) is actually invalidating any statement of equality.

Well this is certainly the propaganda that one will get in either secular feminists groups or the new secular feminists churches (ELCA, PCUSA, etc). Of course like most things that are agenda driven it is largely misleading and inaccurate. Prior to Christ instituting his church women were indeed treated poorly in most cultures. Unmarried women were especially treated badly. However, to post something like the above nonsense without recognizing that Christianity was the biggest factor in improving the lot of women in the world is about as dishonest as anything I have ever seen on here. Of course, most of us know that oopsmartin has an agenda that makes it hard for him to be honest and that agenda is advancing the idea of women's ordination in the contemporary church. If you doubt that see his "equal but different" phrase" in his little propaganda statement. Of course, the homosexual, also disdaining biblical truth, uses the same arguments for his or her ordination.

sw

[OopsMartin]

Women throughout history have been the most oppressed and abused group. Female oppression has even surpassed the oppression of slaves and races thus making females the lowest immovable rung on every hierarchical ladder in history. Even today the abuses are staggering and unmentionable in some societies.

If is unfortunate when Christian history has embraced such oppressions. The witch-hunts are an unmemorable blotch on Catholic history. Today I personally consider the complementarian mantra of "equal but different" to be another blotch on Christian history. While some have taken emphasis on the idea of equality, too many have taken the emphasis on difference.

The problem with stating that one group is equal in value to another group but because of inherent differences must always be subordinated (restricted in roles) is that subordination by reason of unchangeable factors (race, color, sex) is actually invalidating any statement of equality.

Well this is certainly the propaganda that one will get in either secular feminists groups or the new secular feminists churches (ELCA, PCUSA, etc). Of course like most things that are agenda driven it is largely misleading and inaccurate. Prior to Christ instituting his church women were indeed treated poorly in most cultures. Unmarried women were especially treated badly. However, to post something like the above nonsense without recognizing that Christianity was the biggest factor in improving the lot of women in the world is about as dishonest as anything I have ever seen on here. Of course, most of us know that oopsmartin has an agenda that makes it hard for him to be honest and that agenda is advancing the idea of women's ordination in the contemporary church. If you doubt that see his "equal but different" phrase" in his little propaganda statement. Of course, the homosexual, also disdaining biblical truth, uses the same arguments for his or her ordination.

sw

St worm, the people in this thread have determined not to make negative assumptions (belief or motivational) about those we disagree with since that is what closed the other thread. And I hope that everyone who participates can agree with that.

FWIW none of the things you stated about me is true. But if you wish to pursue the line of thought, please feel free to PM me privately so that this thread is not derailed..

"recognizing that Christianity was the biggest factor in improving the lot of women in the world "

That is very true SW, and thank you for bringing it up. The Jews were also the biggest factor in bringing fair treatment to women in their era. Yet, we know that later on during the 400 years of prophetic silence that the Pharisees rose up instituting their own rules, Torah interpretations, and restrictions on women that severely denigrated them. It's an interesting dichotomy isn't it. Human fallibility, I'd guess.

[st. Worm]

Women throughout history have been the most oppressed and abused group. Female oppression has even surpassed the oppression of slaves and races thus making females the lowest immovable rung on every hierarchical ladder in history. Even today the abuses are staggering and unmentionable in some societies.

If is unfortunate when Christian history has embraced such oppressions. The witch-hunts are an unmemorable blotch on Catholic history. Today I personally consider the complementarian mantra of "equal but different" to be another blotch on Christian history. While some have taken emphasis on the idea of equality, too many have taken the emphasis on difference.

The problem with stating that one group is equal in value to another group but because of inherent differences must always be subordinated (restricted in roles) is that subordination by reason of unchangeable factors (race, color, sex) is actually invalidating any statement of equality.

Well this is certainly the propaganda that one will get in either secular feminists groups or the new secular feminists churches (ELCA, PCUSA, etc). Of course like most things that are agenda driven it is largely misleading and inaccurate. Prior to Christ instituting his church women were indeed treated poorly in most cultures. Unmarried women were especially treated badly. However, to post something like the above nonsense without recognizing that Christianity was the biggest factor in improving the lot of women in the world is about as dishonest as anything I have ever seen on here. Of course, most of us know that oopsmartin has an agenda that makes it hard for him to be honest and that agenda is advancing the idea of women's ordination in the contemporary church. If you doubt that see his "equal but different" phrase" in his little propaganda statement. Of course, the homosexual, also disdaining biblical truth, uses the same arguments for his or her ordination.

sw

St worm, the people in this thread have determined not to make negative assumptions (belief or motivational) about those we disagree with since that is what closed the other thread. And I hope that everyone who participates can agree with that.

FWIW none of the things you stated about me is true. But if you wish to pursue the line of thought, please feel free to PM me privately so that this thread is not derailed..

"recognizing that Christianity was the biggest factor in improving the lot of women in the world "

That is very true SW, and thank you for bringing it up. The Jews were also the biggest factor in bringing fair treatment to women in their era. Yet, we know that later on during the 400 years of prophetic silence that the Pharisees rose up instituting their own rules, Torah interpretations, and restrictions on women that severely denigrated them. It's an interesting dichotomy isn't it. Human fallibility, I'd guess.

Thank you for agreeing with the most important point of my post when I said that Christianity ushered in a new era of dignity and equality for women in so many ways. However I would still contend that certain phrases in your post reflect your views in the earlier thread that was closed concerning ordaining women and authority in the church. As for today's Christian church I see nothing at all where women are not treated with dignity and respect. And the churches that steadfastly hold to the view that women should not be ordained generally have the highest regard for women and their well being.

sw

[None]

So long as a post is true, what does "motivation" matter?

More than half the arguments on these boards is about assumed motivations and retaliations to those assumptions.

~~

And it only makes sense that the treatment of women improved, slightly,

in eras where God's people were behaving themselves.

[firehill]

Am not derailing this thread but on a side note can I just make one small point regarding respect? St worm brought up something about respect.

For example, the first woman is disrespected when her testimony of what God told them is disregarded. I know that there are reasons for why some disregard her testimony BUT when the whole of scripture, the relevent verses are looked at reagrding the matter it is apparent then that her testimony was true. Now, if the first woman's testimony can be discarded then how can she be seen as respected? I just wanted to make this point because it involves the very first woman who ever existed! I don't wanna discuss her testimony here though. So the very first woman is disrespected because her testimony isn't respected by some because it isn't considered to be true. That's just a small example of disrespect.

Sorry for getting of topic none but I had to post this.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Please do not open new threads by quoting those that have been closed.

If you have any questions about why a thread is closed. Please PM the Moderator who closed it.

Threads are closed for many reasons. Quite often because they have become fruitless, unedifying, and are strife filled.

We must be mindful of our Witness here. There are many reading over our shoulder. Our task as Mods is to keep the discussion edifying and on focus.

Our focus here is Jesus Christ.

If He be lifted up, He will draw all men unto Himself.

Joh