Kabbalah/Jewish Mysticism/Essenes

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Ger,

Have you read it cover to cover? Why are you so adamant to disparage it?

I've posted my reasons and substantiated by objections to Kabbalah. You have not refuted them by Scripture, nor have you proven them wrong. Thus, they stand.

I have not "embraced" it. As I said, I've not read it.

Not true. You posted this, in ignorance of the Kabbalah:

But I can think of no reason to oppose it.

The article I posted shows WHY you should oppose it.

I would say that anything which brings people closer to HaShem glorifies HaKadosh, baruch hu.

You have yet to prove that Kabbalah does bring people closer to G-d, as you intimate here.

Put up already and quit playing games.

I simply think you have made statements, such as it being unBiblical, which you have then not supported, or that it is mystical, which is true and utterly irrelevant as there is nothing unBiblical or contrary to our faith about mystical experiences -- believers have them all the time. There ARE Messianics who DO embrace Kabbalah. I know people whom it has brought closer to HaShem. So no, I'm not positive. I simply see all the gaping holes in your statements, and am reacting against the way you so easily bad mouth something which, as Messianic Jews, is part of our heritage.

Instead of all your silly name-calling tactics, just PROVE there is nothing wrong with Kabbalah, it's as simple as that. If you can't, then you have nothing else to say of interest to this discussion. You must prove your stand, not tear down others without providing any substantiation other than you don't agree.

I posted my reasons for my stand and there are no holes in it. Your turn.

[Vickilynn]

This site is devoted to preaching the truth from Scriptures. It denounces the falsehoods found in some Messianic teachings. You disagree that there are false doctrines with the MJ movement? Then, you haven't read much.

Ah, here is where we will most likely part ways and simply have to agree to disagree. IF the assumption is "scripture alone," as it certainly is within Protestantism, then anything beyond Protestant canon is going to be considered irrelevant at best, of the devil at worst, whether it is Kabbalah or Talmud or canon law or even the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. You may correct me if I have jumped to conclusions, but my guess at this point is that likely you don't even consider any group which does not accept "scripture alone" to be Christian, including Catholics, Orthodox, and most Messianic Jews.

And on THAT note, the basis of the disagreement being found... and found to be irreconcilable...

I say shalom.

Shalom,

So, you're backing out because you can't prove your stand? That's what I thought. OK by me.

Yes, you have jumped to conclusions about my beliefs, but I expect that based on your Unscriptural postings. If you refuse to acknowledge the authority of Scripture, I sincerely question your assertion that you are born-again.

Yes, until we have a foundation on which to discuss, which is the Scriptures, we have no place to discuss anything.

[Vickilynn]

Actually, it is you that made the claim. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If Kaballah is unscriptural, it is you that needs provide the evidence, not me that need prove the opposite. However, I consider the discussion over, so don't worry about it at this point. It is obvious to me now that the mere fact that it simply is not scripture is your point, rather than that it contradicts scripture.

Shalom Ger,

I made the claim and backed it up. You have yet to do that. I already did. You haven't.

Kabbalah DOES contradict Scripture, THAT is the point.

And the conversation is over because you cannot prove your false assertion that Kabbalah is good. It is not. It is occult. If you disagree with that, instead of attacking me, you should be proving YOUR point. But, obviously you can't, and we all knew that since Kabbalah is NOT good, or Scriptural.

[sweetycakes]

There are a great many occultic traditions which are based on the Kabbalah, or partly based upon it, or touch upon it.

Many, many of the arcane schools and esoteric practices use it as their base.

I agree with Vickilynn and Shiloh. It is evil and dangerous. Stay away from it.

We need the Holy Bible.....not some esoteric gnostic nonsense

[Vickilynn]

There are a great many occultic traditions which are based on the Kabbalah, or partly based upon it, or touch upon it.

Many, many of the arcane schools and esoteric practices use it as their base.

I agree with Vickilynn and Shiloh. It is evil and dangerous. Stay away from it.

We need the Holy Bible.....not some esoteric gnostic nonsense

Shalom Stephen,

Amen!!

[Guest shiloh357]

This site is devoted to preaching the truth from Scriptures. It denounces the falsehoods found in some Messianic teachings. You disagree that there are false doctrines with the MJ movement? Then, you haven't read much.

Ah, here is where we will most likely part ways and simply have to agree to disagree. IF the assumption is "scripture alone," as it certainly is within Protestantism, then anything beyond Protestant canon is going to be considered irrelevant at best, of the devil at worst, whether it is Kabbalah or Talmud or canon law or even the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. You may correct me if I have jumped to conclusions, but my guess at this point is that likely you don't even consider any group which does not accept "scripture alone" to be Christian, including Catholics, Orthodox, and most Messianic Jews.

And on THAT note, the basis of the disagreement being found... and found to be irreconcilable...

I say shalom.

Actually Ger Tzedek, the "Scripture alone" belief does not hold that EVERYTHING outside the Protestant is of the devil. You are overstating that issue. What it means is that the Bible is the final arbiter in all matters pertaining to Christian faith and practice.

According Shaul, the Scriptures are able to fully equip us for every good work. While some other extra-biblical works are good for educational purposes with respect to culture, history, etc. They are not our source of truth.

I find many echoes of the Talmud in the sayings of Jesus. That does not suddenly make the Talmud inspired. I have Jacob Nuesner's rather weak edition of the Talmud installed on my computer. I am saving my money for the Soncino Talmud which is higher quality. I also possess the Midrash Rabbah, Shulcan Aruch, The Path of the Just, and several other Jewish writings which help me gain insight into the history and thought processes of my people.

The Kabbalah is another issue though. The Kabbalah didn't even come around until the 13th century. It is rooted in paganism. I have read only the Zohar, and I found it to be quite chock full paganism and occultism.

[nebula]

I'm just laughing. Gnosticism????

Would you trust what is said on a site devoted to smirching Messianic Judaism to get information right about Messianic Judaism? Then why are you trusting a site dedicated to smirching Kabbalah? If you want to learn the truth about Kabbalah, you can't go to a dubious source such as this.

If you all want to jump to conclusions based on little information and gossip, it is on your conscience.

Would you please offer your evidence that Kabbalah is of Jesus, then?

[Fraught]

VickiLynn - get a grip, girl!! I mean this very lovingly, i recognize the signs of someone trying to pick a fight! Peace, sister.

Nebula, all of the OT or Torah, if you will, is of Jesus - it is my understanding that Kabbalah is a deep exploration of the mysteries of Torah. Now as Ger_Tzedek very graciously declined to continue debating, please allow me to do the same as i claim it as my right as the OP.

[Vickilynn]

VickiLynn - get a grip, girl!! I mean this very lovingly, i recognize the signs of someone trying to pick a fight! Peace, sister.

Shalom Fraught,

You are wrong, dead wrong. You recognize nothing.. And there is nothing "loving" about your remarks. Shame on you! You are the one who needs to get a grip and follow the Bible about judging someone's heart motives.

Perhaps because I exposed Kabbalah as occult that it doesn't sit well with you and made you act this way?? Also take it up with Shiloh. He knows a LOT more than Ger and Shiloh is correct, Kabbalah is occult.

[Vickilynn]

Nebula, all of the OT or Torah, if you will, is of Jesus - it is my understanding that Kabbalah is a deep exploration of the mysteries of Torah. Now as Ger_Tzedek very graciously declined to continue debating, please allow me to do the same as i claim it as my right as the OP.

Shalom Neb,

Do some research and you will see Shiloh is correct. Kabbalah is occult. Fraught's understanding of it is not correct. And Ger did not debate with any real information, as he admitted he did not know Kabbalah, he simply didn't like what was posted.

Also, I'm sure Shiloh would be happy to share more info with you about Kabbalah and the dangers of it, if you are really interested. He is very knowledgeable in these areas and HE has posted that it is not of G-d, but is occult.