Catholicism Examined

[stevehut]

There is one baptism today, and it is not water.

Not trying to argue over doctrine. Just defining a word.

[JesusisGod2]

Baptism was part of the righteous requirements of the law.  We are not under the law, and this is not the program we are operating under today's "dispensation of the grace of God"(Eph 3:2).  I'm "done" on baptism for now! 

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but Peter ordered the gentiles to be baptized

Acts 10

47

[Guest tiggr]

So why did the gentiles get baptized if it was only for the Jews? Why does the book of Acts have no formal ending like the other Books? (could it be that we are still living in the same dispensation that they were in? If so then water baptizm still applies today.)

Also if any one gets a chance go to your local library and read what the catholic encyclopedia has to say about baptizm.

1. That the early church did so but in the Name of Jesus Christ it wasnt until later that any one begin to use The titles Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

2. That it was done by TOTAL immersion sprinkling came along much later

3. THere was one priest that was using beer but eventually they stopped him.

4. That it was in 325. A.D. that many of the changes that took placed really begin to be enforced and made into doctrine of the catholic church

The catholic encyclopedia does not make any attempts to cover up where they strayed and how they came up with their own ideas of what or how to do things

It's all right there in black and white I ask everyone to take thet time to look under baptizm and read the numerous pages that they have in their.

[salt and light]

JesusisGod2,

I've heard catholics many times say, "That's your interpretation". I guess all we can do is just keep praying for them.

[jmwhalen]

While seldom recognized, there are a number of different types of baptisms in Scripture. Not every baptism has to do with water. For example, speaking of Israel's exodus from Egypt, Paul writes:

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

"And WERE ALL BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES IN THE CLOUD AND IN THE SEA:"

(I Corinthians 10:1,2)

This is obviously not a "water baptism" for Israel crossed the Red Sea on "dry ground" (Exodus 14:22). Pharaoh and his army, of course, were the ones who were plunged into the water as it thundered down on them in judgment. But it was Israel who is said to have been baptized. For Israel this was a dry baptism!

This helps to clarify the true meaning of the term baptism. The word itself is simply an Anglicized form of the Greek word, baptizo. Unfortunately, for too long denominationally influenced lexicons have defined baptizo as "to dip." That this cannot be an adequate definition is easily seen from Scripture:

In Matthew 3:11 John the Baptist said Christ would "baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Was He to "dip" people in the Holy Spirit and fire? In Luke 12:50 Christ called His death a baptism. Was He "dipped" into death? In I Corinthians 12:13 we read, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body." Are believers "dipped" into one body? The answer to these questions, of course, is no. This is a totally inappropriate definition.

It is from this erroneous definition that the whole idea of baptism as a burial with Christ in water has evolved. But the fact is that Christ was not buried in water. No one buries people in water, except perhaps, as an expedient when at sea.

In general Scriptural usage the word baptism indicates complete identification, whether with an element, a person or a group. This is why Paul said in Romans 6:3, "As many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death. "In other words, the only way to become one with Christ is to be identified with Him in His death by faith.

As to water baptism it is imperative to have an understanding of just what it indicates or symbolizes. Fortunately it is not difficult to determine the proper meaning associated with water baptism in Scripture. Repeatedly it is used to represent a ceremonial cleansing [footnote 1]. While we do not bury in water, we certainly do wash in water and this is clearly the meaning associated with water baptism in Scripture.

When Peter said in Acts 2:38, "repent and be baptized," did he mean "repent and be buried"? Of course not! He meant repent and be cleansed. Water baptism symbolizes cleansing-not burial-and this is why the question arose in John 3:23-25 about purification in connection with the baptism of John.

One more passage: In Acts 22:16 Ananias declared to Saul, "Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins." "Wash away" does not spell "bury."

Never in Scripture does water baptism refer to burial, but always to a cleansing. To understand the reason for this we need to understand the place of water baptism in the program of God for the nation Israel.

First we should understand that water baptism is not simply a so-called "New Testament ordinance." It is in fact a practice firmly rooted in the Old Testament Scriptures and God's program for the nation Israel set forth there.

In John 1:25 John the Baptist was asked, "Why baptizeth thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?" Obviously these inquirers were not surprised by John's practice of water baptism as though it were something new to them. Rather they expected the practice of water baptism in connection with the coming of Messiah. Where could this expectation have come from except the prophecies found in Old Testament Scriptures?

And remember: the Mosaic economy was still in force during the ministries of both John and Christ. Hebrews 9:17 declares, "A testament is of force AFTER men are dead." Thus the new covenant could not possibly replace the old until after the death of Christ.

John's baptism was not something new-rather it was a ceremony thoroughly understood by those to whom he ministered.

Water baptism did not begin with John the Baptist. When we turn to the Scriptures to trace its development we quickly learn that water baptism is a ceremonial cleansing that pertains to the kingdom promised to the nation Israel.

Nowhere in Scripture is water baptism used to symbolize a burial. Denominational biases which read water into passages like Romans 6:3, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12-which speak of our identification in Christ-have robbed the term of its meaning.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS

In Exodus 19:5,6-at the very giving of the Mosaic Covenant-God's purpose in giving birth to the nation Israel is clearly revealed:

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.

"And YE SHALL BE UNTO ME A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

God's stated purpose concerning the nation Israel is that she is to be "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation," through whom the Gentile nations will draw nigh to God. This is what Isaiah refers to when he writes:

"But YE SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIESTS OF THE LORD: MEN SHALL CALL YOU THE MINISTERS OF OUR GOD" (Isaiah 61:6).

Ultimately this will, of course, be accomplished during the kingdom reign of Christ when Israel is dwelling in her land and the nations find salvation and blessing through her instrumentality.

All of this awaits Israel's redemption. The "If ye will obey...then ye shall be" principle of the law assured that the "knowledge of sin" would abound. Because of her failure, the nation Israel soon found herself in need of a Redeemer. Thus while the hope of Israel looked to the promised coming kingdom, the need of the nation for cleansing must first be faced.

With this in mind it is important to remember that of all the people or things to be baptized it was the priest who stood foremost. Exodus 29 sets forth the procedure for induction into the priest's office. Two very important steps of consecration are included:

First must come cleansing-a washing with water:

"And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and SHALT WASH THEM WITH WATER" (Exodus 29:4).

Second there was the anointing with oil:

"Then shalt thou TAKE THE ANOINTING OIL, AND POUR IT UPON HIS HEAD, AND ANOINT HIM" (Exodus 29:7).

Just as the sons of Aaron were the priests through whom the people of Israel could approach God, so the nation Israel itself will one day be "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation," through whom the Gentiles will draw near to God (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:17,18, Isaiah 60:1-3, Zechariah 8:20-23). It is in this light that John the Baptist appears on the scene preaching his ,baptism of repentance to all the People of Israel" (Acts 13:24).

In other words, John's "baptism Of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4) was a means of national repentance and preparation to be the kingdom of priests God ordained that favored nation to be. Matthew 3:1,2 is important here:

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

"And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

And how were they to thus prepare for the coming kingdom?

"Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

"And WERE BAPTIZED OF HIM IN JORDAN, CONFESSING THEIR SINS" (vs. 5,6).

John's baptism was the means of fleeing from "the wrath to come" (v.7). And no doubt is left as to what this "wrath to come involved:

"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

"And now also THE AXE IS LAID UNTO THE ROOT OF THE TREES; THEREFORE EVERY TREE WHICH BRINGETH NOT FORTH GOOD FRUIT IS HEWN DOWN, AND CAST INTO THE FIRE.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST, AND WITH FIRE:

"Whose fan is in his hand, and HE WILL THOROUGHLY PURGE HIS FLOOR, AND GATHER HIS WHEAT INTO THE GARNER; BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE" (vs. 8-12).

Notice the choice set before Israel: there was a judgment coming and if they wanted to be the "wheat" that is safely carried into the barn and not the "chaff" that is to burned with the fire of judgment they must be identified as the believing remnant through the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Just as in Numbers 31:21-24, if they wanted to escape the fire they must "go through the water." Thus they would be "purified with the water of separation" and identified together as the believing remnant in Israel-set apart as "an holy nation."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE LITTLE FLOCK

John's baptism became a watershed issue for Israel. Luke 7:29,30 tells us,

"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, JUSTIFIED GOD, BEING BAPTIZED WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN.

"But the Pharisees and lawyers REJECTED THE COUNSEL OF GOD AGAINST THEMSELVES, BEING NOT BAPTIZED OF HIM."

This, of course, is the reason that water baptism was associated with salvation and the remission of sins. Salvation was through faith, but the only way they could express their faith was by doing what God required-preparing to function as "a royal priesthood." First must come the cleansing; then the service. Ezekiel 36:25 promises Israel:

"Then will I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, AND YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you."

The "sprinkling with clean water" was the necessary first step of faith in forming the nucleus of the coming kingdom, the group of Jewish believers which our Lord called His "little flock."

"FEAR NOT, LITTLE FLOCK; FOR IT IS YOUR FATHER'S GOOD PLEASURE TO GIVE YOU THE KINGDOM" (Luke 12:32).

The next step in preparing this believing remnant was Matthew 3:11's baptism with the Spirit. This baptism would correspond to the second rite of consecration to the priesthood-the anointing. The baptism with the Spirit would provide the needed empowering for the nation's coming service.

This explains why our Lord's post-resurrection ministry ties these two things-the baptism of repentance and the anointing of the Holy Spirit-so closely together. For example:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

"He that BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

"AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE; In my name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues" (Mark 16:15-17. cf. Luke 24:47, Acts 1:4-8,etc.).

After the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, Peter's appeal to Israel is clearly a further development of John's call to repentance:

"The Peter said unto them, REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST" (Acts 2:38).

Here the order is clear: first the washing-"repent and be baptized"-and then the anointing-ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Those who feel the role of water baptism somehow changed after Pentecost should notice that the pre-and post-resurrection baptisms were identically the same. "Repent, and be baptized ... for the remission of sins" is exactly what John proclaimed in Mark 1:4. Nothing has changed. Rather there had simply been the historical development of the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, followed by the outpouring of the Spirit. The Kingdom was no longer simply "at hand" as it had been with John; now the time had come to actually offer it to Israel.

And even after Pentecost those who refused to be baptized stood as condemned before God as did those in Luke 7:30, for Peter goes on to declare,

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:39,40).

This basic issue of gathering together the believing remnant of Israel-the "little flock" of Luke 12:32-runs through the ministries of John, our Lord and the Twelve in early Acts. This "little flock" represented the nucleus of the governmental authority for the coming kingdom. Those in Israel who refused to "repent and be baptized"-to identify themselves as those who had changed their minds about Christ being their Messiah through the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins-were to be "destroyed from among the people" (Acts 3:23).

It is of this little flock of Jewish believers that Peter later writes,

"BUT YE ARE A CHOSEN GENERATION, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, AN HOLY NATION, A PECULIAR PEOPLE; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (I Peter 2:9).

Thus we say again: In Scripture, water baptism is a ceremonial cleansing that pertained to the kingdom promised the nation Israel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENTILE BAPTISM

If water baptism is thus associated with cleansing the nation Israel for its ministry in her kingdom, where does the baptism of Gentiles under the commission of Matthew 28:19 fit in?

Even here, water baptism is again demonstrated to symbolize cleansing-and again clearly associated with Israel's kingdom.

Remember that the priests were not the only people to be baptized. In connection with the cleansing of lepers, Leviticus 14:9 instructs:

"...Also HE SHALL WASH HIS FLESH IN WATER, AND HE SHALL BE CLEAN."

The "nations" of Matthew 28:19 were of course considered "unclean" by Israel and thus must be baptized-be cleansed-in order to gain access to Israel's kingdom and acceptance into God's favor.

Both Israel and the Gentiles needed to acknowledge their need of cleansing. The former in order to be worthy to minister the things of God; the latter to be the recipient of those things.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT ABOUT US?

The fact that water baptism pertains to Israel's kingdom program demonstrates why it has no place at all in the program of God today. It was a ceremonial washing participated in until the nation Israel and its program were set aside.

With "the fall of Israel" God raised up the apostle Paul and through him sent "salvation to the Gentiles." Following the raising up of Paul the practice of water baptism clearly underwent a change. The first real indication of this in the Scriptural record is found in Peter's experience at Cornelius' house in Acts 10.

As the Lord began to prepare Peter to recognize the change in program taking place in mid-Acts (e.g., Acts 10:28), He also prepared him for a change in baptism. As Peter addressed those assembled in Cornelius' house, he received a shock:

"To him [Christ] give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. "WHILE PETER YET SPAKE THESE WORDS, THE HOLY GHOST FELL ON ALL THEM WHICH HEARD THE WORD.

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 10:43-45).

This was a significant departure from the program Peter had been working under! All the Gentiles had to do to receive the Holy Spirit was believe, in sharp contrast with the previous requirement of the prior baptism of repentance (Acts 2:38). Peter then hastily baptizes them, asking, "Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized?" (See Acts 10:45-48).

Clearly water baptism was not functioning in the same way it had previous with Israel. Paul's own attitude toward baptism reflects this change:

"I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

"Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

"And I baptized also the household of Stephannas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

"For CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE, but to preach the gospel...."

(I Corinthians 1:14-17).

Certainly if Paul were working under the commission given to the other Apostles he could never have said this! When God interrupted Israel's prophetic program and ushered in "the mystery," by the very nature of things He interrupted Israel's baptism. As Israel "diminished" (Romans 11:12) through the later Acts period, so water baptism gradually diminished in importance and a new baptism emerged on the scene to take its place.

Today there is no priestly nation or class exalted above others. God is now reconciling both Jews and Gentiles to Himself in one body simply through faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary (Ephesians 2:13-18).

When the believer trusts Christ as Savior, that moment "by one Spirit [he is] "baptized into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) and thus "baptized into Christ" (Galatians 3:27). There is no room for a water ceremony here. No human rite or ceremony can place the believer "into Christ." No, the "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) of the "one body" is performed by "one Spirit"-not by preacher or priest.

The mechanics of positional truth---of being "in Christ,"---is this Spirit baptism. So completely adequate is our position in Christ by virtue of this Spirit performed baptism that we are told:

"And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM..." (Colossians 2:10).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath BLESSED US WITH ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST" (Ephesians 1:3).

In light of such completeness in Christ afforded to even the simplest believer the very moment of salvation, we ask: What could possibly be accomplished by water baptism that Christ and His finished work at Calvary have not already accomplished?

If this question is faced honestly, it will soon be apparent that not only does water baptism have no place in God's program today, but to practice it is to cast a reflection on the glorious, all-sufficient, finished work of the lord Jesus Christ (cf. Colossians 2:20).

We thank God that "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body." God forbid that we should add to that "one baptism" which unites us to Christ and His people and makes us complete in Him.

[mobile21]

They go to confession to profess thier sin to man.

And I guess you telepathically confess your sins to our Lord Jesus Christ right????

Tell me something:

If Jesus Christ is God and God is omniscient (knows everything), then why you need to telepathically confess your sins to God if He already knows which ones are your sins????.

If Jesus Christ instituted confession via telepathy, why the Bible says:

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (Jn 20:23) ????

If Jesus gives to the disciples the power to forgive sins (hence, the biblical method of confession), how that system relates to the "telepathic confession" one???. Let's say one person confesses a sin to a disciple and the disciple does not forgive the sin but then the very same person confesses the very same sin telepathically......: is the sin forgiven or isn't according to Scripture???.

[refugepsa91]

They go to confession to profess thier sin to man.

And I guess you telepathically confess your sins to our Lord Jesus Christ right????

Tell me something:

If Jesus Christ is God and God is omniscient (knows everything), then why you need to telepathically confess your sins to God if He already knows which ones are your sins????.

If Jesus Christ instituted confession via telepathy, why the Bible says:

"If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." (Jn 20:23) ????

If Jesus gives to the disciples the power to forgive sins (hence, the biblical method of confession), how that system relates to the "telepathic confession" one???. Let's say one person confesses a sin to a disciple and the disciple does not forgive the sin but then the very same person confesses the very same sin telepathically......: is the sin forgiven or isn't according to Scripture???.

well all I have to say is I hope that a mere person is not in charge of a person being forgiven by God. I can tell you that there are some people that I am having a hard time forgiving....but I pray whether I forgive them or not God will...and I know there are some who may not have forgiven me for past happenings...does that mean that since they don't forgive me that God does not forgive me?!? Now this is an honest question...if there are people out there who hold grudges against us...does that mean that we can't be forgiven by God?

Love and Blessings,

Angel

[Only4Him777]

Okay, I think we are missing the point of this thread. It is not to debate the accuracy of what we know as the Bible. It is not to debate wether christianity is viable. It is to find out the error of Catholocism when compared to Biblical doctrine.

Saying that, I am not Catholic... However, my dad's side of the family is. They do believe in the deity of Mary and that you can and need the assistance of her to get into heaven.

They do place saints (that they deem worthy from their works) to be equal to Jesus.

They are very much into "rituals" not a real relationship to Christ.

My dad left the Catholic church because they started having everyone line up and kiss the feet of the statue of Mary. They also believe that you have to confess everything to a priest to be forgiven, and not that you can just be forgiven... but rather you have to do penants for your punishment. Among, many other things that I don't know enough about yet to comment on.

I appreciate your topic because this is something that has come up quite a bit with my dh's family lately. My dh and I are beginning to look deeper into this topic. The ignorance of the Body regarding their tolerancy of "live and let live" and confusing false doctrines with the truth is what is leading others astray.

No, I don't believe that I know everything (as some say fundamentals think), but I do believe that we can understand everything... Some things just take more study then others.

God knew the Bible that we would learn from, and He has protected it (KJV) for our salvation. It is what we have and all that we can trust for the truth... meaning His word.

I wish you well on your study Neb. Let us know what you find out.

YSIC,

Alison :hug:

[Only4Him777]

OOOPS!

Computer problems... when I went to post, all my computer would bring up was the first page... So that is what I posted to. I am glad that many of you have covered these topics and more (now that I can see them).

Hope I didn't confuse or offend anyone.

YSIC,

Alison :hug:

[salt and light]

Douay,

I appreciate you trying to help,and if I do need a psychiatrist,I have the best one,and his name is Dr. Jesus, but really, do I need a psychiatrist for telling the truth?