Is Salvation Predestined??

[Guest ~*~Soli_Deo~*~]

Is our Salvation in the lord Jesus Christ predestined??

I spent a few years attending a Presbyterian Orthodox church.

(Reformed Calvinist Doctrines)

They appeared to have very sound doctrine in relation to scriptures in the bible. It seemed to make sense for a length of time. However there came a point that through many conversations with a few great Christian friends those things seemed to maybe not be as I had been previously taught in this church.

Points of Calvinism:

Man is totally depraved after the fall of man. Mankind has now entered a state of sin and man has lost his freewill. Salvation is not a choice a person makes but is rather based upon God

[JohnS]

Election is the act of God whereby in eternity past He chose those who will be saved. Election is unconditional, because it does not depend on anything outside of God, such as good works or foreseen faith (Romans 9:16). This doctrine is repeatedly taught in the Bible, and is also demanded by our knowledge of God. To begin with, let's look at the biblical evidence.

The Bible says prior to salvation, all people are dead in sin-- spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-3). In this state of death, the sinner is utterly unable to respond to any spiritual stimulus and therefore unable to love God, obey Him, or please Him in any way. Scripture says the mind of every unbeliever "is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8, emphasis added). That describes a state of total hopelessness: spiritual death.

The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work. In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Acts 16 tells us that Lydia was saved when, " . . . the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."

Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . . also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 2:8 suggests that even our faith is a gift from God.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."

Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.

But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word "know," in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world.

If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).

In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.

http://www.gty.org/IssuesandAnswers/archiv...ve/election.htm

[Russell]

Election is the act of God whereby in eternity past He chose those who will be saved. Election is unconditional, because it does not depend on anything outside of God, such as good works or foreseen faith (Romans 9:16). This doctrine is repeatedly taught in the Bible, and is also demanded by our knowledge of God. To begin with, let's look at the biblical evidence.

The Bible says prior to salvation, all people are dead in sin-- spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-3). In this state of death, the sinner is utterly unable to respond to any spiritual stimulus and therefore unable to love God, obey Him, or please Him in any way. Scripture says the mind of every unbeliever "is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8, emphasis added). That describes a state of total hopelessness: spiritual death.

The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."

This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work. In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Acts 16 tells us that Lydia was saved when, " . . . the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."

Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . . also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Ephesians 2:8 suggests that even our faith is a gift from God.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."

Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.

But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word "know," in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world.

If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.

The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).

In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.

http://www.gty.org/IssuesandAnswers/archiv...ve/election.htm

Well said John. Sounds a very Biblical interpretation to me.

Something that has puzzled me is Rom 9:22. In here Paul talks of "vessels of wrath, fit for destruction" It appears by this Scripture that God has created some that are doomed from birth.

In 9:23 we get a glimse as to why God would do this, "to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy".

Are there any who could elaborate on this.

Blessings

[justjake]

Nobody taught this doctrine for 1,500 years, so it can't be true.

Especially in light of the fact that God is love. Love demands a choice to love or reject.

If Calvinism and predestined salvation is true than God is a Divine Rapist.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you in Christ Jesus,

Predestination????

What of Grace. Something you can't earn yet must be accepted.

A gift beyond all reason. The gift is not only in the giving. It must be received as well. Otherwise it is just a pretty box with a bow. Not that you receiving it is a work unto salvation. It is a gift that you cannot attain on your own. Yet still freely given.

No one was made for judgment. No one was made for Wrath. Your choice the blessing or the curse? You live under the curse until the Truth set you free. The Truth come from the Word and the Hearing makes you free. This is why the great commission is what it is. If all men are predestined to salvation or wrath? Why bother?

The Lord knows all mens hearts.

No Glory in predestination. Just a mechanical plan set in motion. With a fixed outcome.

The Glory is in the choice. Free Will to Love your Daddy! :il:

Peace,

Dave

[tsth]

Something that has puzzled me is Rom 9:22. In here Paul talks of "vessels of wrath, fit for destruction" It appears by this Scripture that God has created some that are doomed from birth.

In 9:23 we get a glimse as to why God would do this, "to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy".

Are there any who could elaborate on this.

Blessings

This was discussed under the thread "Does Satan Act Independently of God" a while back.

Here's an excerpt from that thread:

You are given the choice to be used of good or evil (that must be what the fruit of the tree in the garden afforded......the choice for "either" one) But either way, you will be a vessel in God's hand, much in the same way Pharoah was in shaping the Israelites and glorifying the Lord ultimately. The Lord bears our rebellion with great patience.........but.........only up to a point, then, we are given over completely.

In His Love,

Suzanne

tsth:

You are given the choice to be used of good or evil (that must be what the fruit of the tree in the garden afforded......the choice for "either" one) But either way, you will be a vessel in God's hand, much in the same way Pharoah was in shaping the Israelites and glorifying the Lord ultimately. The Lord bears our rebellion with great patience.........but.........only up to a point, then, we are given over completely.

I like what I think you are saying, that is the part about being a vessel in God's hand.  But, who are we given over to? the law of sowing and reaping?  God does say he is not mocked, that which you sow you will also reap. 

I think more accurately put, the tree of knowledge of good and evil was just that!  The tree provided a menu, so to speak, of good things and also of evil things.  In essence it was a tree of choice.  The Bible says that after Adam took a bite, "the eyes of them both were opened."  That is when they were able to make a conscious decision to choose good or evil, life or death, love or hate, etc.  Just as it is our choice today.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

We are given over to the one we choose to serve. Either way, God will be glorified, for He will even be able to take bad and use for good. There will be a purpose.

In His Love,

Suzanne

If there is going to be free-will, then there must be allowance and provision for evil and the judgment of evil. Satan and his followers will be that tool implemented. There must be a just recourse for wickedness and God will use those who choose to be of wickedness, to be a rod in His hand, for whatever purposes He so chooses. But, I have seen those who choose to live by the sword......die by the sword. There must be a reward for the wicked, as well as the just. Satan is that reward, as he chose to be, and as his followers choose to be. i.e. Pharoah. He chose to be used as a rod in God's hand, by his denial of God's Authority. Ultimately he was used as a tool to chasten Israel, reveal the power of God to an unbelieving nation of Egypt and ultimately destroy a wicked army by leading them into the sea. God will use whoever He will use, but the choice as to how one will be used, for good/evil, is tied to the choice one makes with his own free-will after hearing the Word spoken. The option as to who you will serve, is there, God gives that option. But God has allowed for free-will/evil, to have an ultimate recourse, a balancing, justice. I guess what I'm trying to say is if there is free-will, then there is a purpose for satan, he will put the wicked to an end ultimately. He is used to as the just rewards for those who choose wickedness.

In His Love,

Suzanne

The thread is here, if you want to see it entirely.

Does Satan Act Independent of God

Also in response to your question, you cannot overlook the context passages of Romans 9:22-24

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I believe that God knows beforehand who will accept Him and who will reject Him. If so, then He knew how He would use Pharaoh for the purposes as a rod to train up the Israelites. I believe that Pharaoh, just like any other who rejects the Holy Spirit, was not disregarded, he was given MANY opportunities to believe and receive, wasn't he? But God bore with great patience, Pharaoh. But God in His Soveriegnty, used Pharaoh's disobedience, for good for the training up of the Israelites, and the glorifying of His Own Name. But still, God bore with Pharaoh and endured with much longsuffering, even though he(Pharaoh) was a vessel of wrath. Pharaoh was still given the same opportunity to "believe", probably even more so than some others, Pharaoh was shown God's Power! Yet Pharaoh refused, so God still had a purpose for good, to bring about the obedience and deliverance of the Israelites, before the World!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity." 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Matthitjah]

Amen!

Not to bring polotics into this?

The current example of gay marriage. Would you say that those who are violating the law of the land are predestined to do so?

Or rather are they making a free will choice to prosper their sin?

Making themselves vessels for his Wrath rather than vessels for His Glory?

Peace,

Dave

[tsth]

Amen!

Not to bring polotics into this?

The current example of gay marriage. Would you say that those who are violating the law of the land are predestined to do so?

Or rather are they making a free will choice to prosper their sin?

Making themselves vessels for his Wrath rather than vessels for His Glory?

Peace,

Dave

Which points directly back to this point made:

QUOTE

You are given the choice to be used of good or evil (that must be what the fruit of the tree in the garden afforded......the choice for "either" one) But either way, you will be a vessel in God's hand, much in the same way Pharoah was in shaping the Israelites and glorifying the Lord ultimately. The Lord bears our rebellion with great patience.........but.........only up to a point, then, we are given over completely.

And is supported in the Scriptures:

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

The pattern, according to the Scriptures, is very obviously there. Those who deny God's Authority, are acting out in full blown rebellion, and given over to it. It is spoken in the Word, that these things will come to be.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Ya know? In Romans 1, it says "THEY KNEW GOD"!

BUT!

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Interesting. It is easier to see and understand now, as we watch.

In His Love,

Suzanne