Is Salvation Predestined??

[eric]

If it were true that God predestinated some to go to everlating damnation, and I for one dont buy into that, it would make the great commission a wasted excercise. I mean what would be the point of trying to evangelise your neighbour if he is already predestined for everlasting condemnation.

No way has our free will been taken awayIMHO.

[Catsmeow]

Predestination is a confusing issue...God loved Jacob but Esau He hated, even before they were born. Even before either one had a chance to commit offense, God had already decided to whom He bore His favor.

Yet, it's our job to not only reach people with the gospel but to live an example of Christ and be convincing to them.

Christ must be lifted up and exalted in our living witness.

God, I think, holds us accountable for not only what we do but what we fail to do to rescue others.

It may mean praying for the lost; it may mean preaching and teaching the gospel. We have a job to do...no matter what.

[Work in Progress]

If it were true that God predestinated some to go to everlating damnation,

No one is saying that, and I've never heard anyone teach that. God speaks about those He has chosen. Whether he "passed over" others, or what, I don't know and don't dwell on it, and definately do not hold Him accountable for whatever He does.

Like I said, Eric - we witness because we have no idea who is God's. Perhaps we , or our words or actions will be what God uses to bring them to life. All I know is that we are commanded to share the Gospel, so I do.

[eric]

Sorry WIP, I was not referring to anything you posted in particular, I was merely generalising on what some of the more dogmatic Calvanists maintain. I have been in debates where some have emphatically stated that we have no choice whatever and that God made up His mind before man was created who was and who was not going to be saved, which completely nullifies the free will we were born with, and there is absolutely no way that I can accept that. Jesus said when I am lifted up I will draw all men to Myself. It is not my desire or intent to offend anyone of the board's members, so if you think I was attacking you, personally, you are quite mistaken.

Enjoy your day in Our Lord.

eric.

[Catsmeow]

But we end up with the same question:

Romans 9:11-13

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

In this verse, God seems to have a clear plan of who belongs to Him and who does not...

Jesus verifies this by saying...

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

And...

John 6:37

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

[Guest LCPGUY]

John 6:37

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

This verse certainly implies that by its very wording that there will also be some that the Father does not give to Jesus. But then on the flip side, another interpretation could be that the Father looked down through eternity, saw those who would accept Christ and gave them to Jesus.

Just as with Esau, God probably fore-knew what he would do and therefore hated him.

I really have a hard time believing that God would just capriciously or arbitrarily select some to be saved and force others to be damned. If that's the case, then we're robots. Free will, choice, is out the door.

I think maybe we all need to pray more about this issue. There are too many opinions.

In Christ,

John

[Guest LCPGUY]

Maybe Romans 9:14-21 will shed more light on this. Maybe my opinion is wrong. I'd like to see how y'all interpret this.

In Him,

John

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Jacob I have Loved yet Esau I have hated.

One child believed on faith and his name was changed. He has a Spiritual inheritence and it is in the line of Abraham. Straight from the Father on Grace. His inheritence is like his Fathers before him like the sand of the seashore in number.

The other chose to have a full stomach rather than keep his inheritence. He caused much pain and sorrow for his father Isaac.

Like Ishmael in the house of the Lord in the favor of the Lord He despised the promise.

One walked by Faith. Believing the promise and that He who made the promise could deliver. The other walked in the flesh and received a fleshy inheritence.

Like Cain and Abel. One made an offering based on Faith(in the aisle of the Will of God) and brought the fat and the blood. The other made one based on the flesh and was angry when the Father wouldn't accept it.

Do you think maybe the Father just doesn't accept produce? You know cain being a farmer and all?

Or could this be true.

Ho

[Catsmeow]

ICP: I hear you. I have wrestled with this bigtime. Believe me. I have a hard time with these issues...

On the one hand, the bible speaks of "who are we to question the Creator with what He does with His creation"...

On the other hand, I ache inside at the thought because I remember reading that the Lord hardens whom He will harden, and vise versa.

This whole issue leaves my head spinning... :oww:

[Work in Progress]

Eric, no way did I think that and you owe me no apology brother. I just feel like I have to clarify something if it seems to me it was misrepresented.

I have heard of "TR's" (totally reformed) who don't believe in witnessing - uh, duh! LOL. Glad I don't know any.

I have been in debates where some have emphatically stated that we have no choice whatever and that God made up His mind before man was created who was and who was not going to be saved,

Eric, this is not "extreme" and is pretty much the Calvanist's understanding of Scripture. Because someone says/believes that salvation is 100% GOD and man has NO PART in it, does not 'nullify' free will. It merely means that free will does not exist in salvation. Free will in how we "work out our salvation" is not "nullified", as any normal Calvanist will tell you. And, that's like the FOURTH time I've said that, so I'm not saying it again!