Is Salvation Predestined??

[His son]

At that point, their eyes are opened and they can not refuse the call of God. Salvation is 100% GOD and to claim that man has any part in it is, IMO, not only unBiblical, but an insult to the creator of the perfect plan. Man is fallible, God is not. His divine plan for His creation is not either.

To say that man can not refuse the call of God is calling God a liar. He has told us in every imanginable way that predestination is a result of His foreknowledge of our freewill choices. I'm glad that you said in your opinion, but I do pray that you will burn up all the writtings of men that proclaim this false doctrine and read nothing but The Bible. You my friend are doing what you claim other are doing.

His son.

To whom is this post directed?

To whomever wrote the first paragraph, or anyone else for that matter who would make such a statement. The Bible is God's Word, and it is only to be interpreted by The Holy Spirit. I would challenge anyone who has been deceived by that false doctrine to Collect all The Scriptures from Genesis to revelation that deal with our personal relationship with God, how it can be maintained, and how we can take ourselves out of it. I was at one time a very strong supporter of the false doctrine, and The Holy Spirit very gently encouraged, and led me into studying The Whole Bible on this issue, and I had my eyes opened to The Truth of The inseperability of all Scripture on any issue, and just like He tells us His True Doctrines are formed from The Bible, taken line upon line precept upon precept, here a little there a little, and The Holy Spirit is The Instructer He has sent to lead us to truth. When I did this I could see how that I had been starting with the false doctrine, and then as I read The Scriptures, those that seemed to support them would jump out at me, and it would be usually a verse, and there would be no consideration whatsoever of what else was around it. I will never be able to thank Him enough for taking me out of this deception, and now I can see that from the garden to the end. God having made us in His image has given us the total freedom of our own will to choose between the two Kingdoms that exist in this universe, and who we will serve. And in His foreknowledge of what those choices will be He has told us what the results are, and written them in His Book so that they would be clearly understood, and so He has given us the ability to predestine our own place of residence for the next pilgrimage we will go on. Adam an Eve were as saved as one can ever be walking and talking with God in the Garden daily. God gave them the two choices of who they would serve, Him in a personal relationship the tree of life, or satan the tree of knowledge of Him by their own efforts. Because He had given them dominion over all His creation, when they made that choice they put all that in the hands of satan, and they lost their freewill to obey any one but him. Christ came here and lived this pilgrimage we are on in exactly the same way we have to live it making freewill choices on a day by day basis, and He always chose the way The Holy Spirit directed Him to. The only reason that I can see for Him to do this was to show us that it is possible. This part wasn't necessary for the forgiveness of our sins which are covered by his blood, and our judgement for sin being paid on that cross. That cross also took away satans lordship over us, and returned our freewill to choose who we would serve. This is a result of His mercy, and then His Grace extends to us the time He knows each one of us individualy will need to study understand, and be able to make those choices in full knowledge of the consequences, and keep our selves on that narrow way which is His plan of salvation. This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is why He (Christ) told us to take up our Cross daily and follow Him. If OSAS were true their would be no need for you to do this, because you would be in the same state He was before He came here. That doctrine is not Biblical but was totaly formed and taught by men long after Christ laid down His life for us on that cross.

[Adstar]

2 Peter 3

9The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Lets read this carefully shall we.

the operative word in this verse is SHOULD

It does not say that God is not willing that any perish. it is saying that He is not willing that any SHOULD perish

So therefore when people reject the Messiah Jesus it is not a failing of God plan. because is clearly says that His desire is that man SHOULD come to repentance not Will come to repentance.

When calvanist state that free will is not operative when it comes to salvation they are saying that we do not have free will to have faith in God and believe in the Messiah Jesus. They are saying that God will is that some will perish in the eternal lake of fire. This runs counter to the verse mentioned above. So calvanists are in effect saying that the above verse is a lie.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Work in Progress]

I would challenge anyone who has been deceived by that false doctrine to Collect all The Scriptures from Genesis to revelation that deal with our personal relationship with God, how it can be maintained,

I have. Thanks.

and how we can take ourselves out of it. I was at one time a very strong supporter of the false doctrine,

I don't think it's a "false doctrine", neither do many others, but I guess you know that.

and The Holy Spirit very gently encouraged, and led me into studying The Whole Bible on this issue, and I had my eyes opened to The Truth of The inseperability of all Scripture on any issue, and just like He tells us His True Doctrines are formed from The Bible, taken line upon line precept upon precept, here a little there a little,

Cool! Me too!

I will never be able to thank Him enough for taking me out of this deception,

Amen, Amen, and AMEN!!! I can't believe I was in the deception of believing that I knew what was best and "fair" and was so arrogant as to believe my feelings of such were what was right.

He has given us the ability to predestine our own place of residence

Yikes!

He knows each one of us individualy will need to study understand, and be able to make those choices in full knowledge of the consequences, and keep our selves on that narrow way which is His plan of salvation.

Amen!

If OSAS were true their would be no need for you to do this, because you would be in the same state He was before He came here. That doctrine is not Biblical but was totaly formed and taught by men long after Christ laid down His life for us on that cross.

I think you mean "there" and :x: :x: :x: :x: :x: :x:

It does not say that God is not willing that any perish. it is saying that He is not willing that any SHOULD perish

Thanks, Adstar, I think that perfectly explains the Calvanist's position, although you didn't mean to.

When calvanist state that free will is not operative when it comes to salvation they are saying that we do not have free will to have faith in God and believe in the Messiah Jesus.

Yep, that's a fair assessment.

So calvanists are in effect saying that the above verse is a lie.

Nope, I've never heard of a Calvanist that believes anything in Scripture is a lie.

As always -with much respect to you Adstar!

[His son]

It's pretty sad that some will hang on to such deception. We can only pray that The Holy Spirit will open their eyes.

[Catsmeow]

I don't think it's "deception" at all...I think we see through a glass darkly and I'm the very first to admit how little I fully understand all of this.

It's bewildering to me because it seems clear that God has a plan from the very beginning for Jacob and Esau. Jacob He loved, while Esau He hated...before either of them had left the womb.

God had already predestined Jacob's future...the older would serve the younger.

It was in God's plan and God is sovereign. It all has to do with God's absolute sovereignty. He has absolutely every right to make every decision concerning His own creation.

But I also struggle with many scriptures, believing it is not His will that ANY should perish.

It would be my wish that ALL live and ALL are spared...but I'm not God nor am I sovereign. I have no right to decide what to do with creation. I'm not the Creator.

So, for me...it's a hard issue to comprehend.

[Adstar]

WIP

I do not presume that i can change your views through this discussion. You seem locked into the calvanist view of God. So be it.

I post because there are many babes in the faith who are forming their beliefs and i am convicted that i must do as much as i can to counter calvinisim for i believe that the basic premise of calvanist predestination is a false witness of Gods plan for humanity.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

[Work in Progress]

I totally understand that, Adstar, and know what a burden you have for any non believers who may be lurking or posting here. You are a dear soul.

I can sympathize with your point because I, too, worry about the picture of God that is painted - and I know how long I believed that and how it hindered my walk with the Lord. So, while we are totally on opposite sides of the fence on this, I fully understand your point.

[Catsmeow]

WIP, you're such a sweetie....awright guys.... :hug:

[Guest fishingpenguin]

Hey guys. I'll tell you, it was really neat because this morning someone pointed something out to me about predestination and it is always awesome to see God working to bring out the truth. Anyway, here is something else for us to munch on.....

Matt 7:24-29 (Jesus speaking here)

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

Ok so based on Jesus' parable, it would seem to me that we have the CHOICE whether or not to put Jesus' words into practice. If we do put them into practice, then we will stand firm, but if we don't CHOOSE to put them into practice, we will fall "with a great crash."

Make sense? :t:

[eric]

Well,all, this has been a very good and informative thread and I for one appreciate every input that has been posted. Now I cant say that I agree with everbody because that would be leaning to being paradoxial. However I do respect everyone's point of view and,like Cats, I find it is all very controversial, but that's what this forum is about. None of us can know with absolute accuracy what God's agenda is, but as every one agrees we have been given a brain and a free will to express our own interpretaion of a very special document, if you can call the bible a document, and it has been done with the love and understanding of a group of people very dear to me. As I believe this topic will still be around right up to the time our Saviour comes for us, I will butt out simply because I am expended on the subject and anything further from me I dont think would be productive.

Thanks again to all participants and all have a great day with the Lord

eric