Is Salvation Predestined??

[Work in Progress]

Russel, you've already answered your own questions and it's obvious that the Holy Spirit has revealed it to you. It did my heart good.

How can our salvation be predestined? It can't, because many of God's promises are conditioned on our obedience.

Yikes. Poor God, eh? He can only "perform" if we let Him, huh?

It would be cruel for God.....

"Cruel" by whose standards? I wouldn't be so arrogant to presume to know better than God and shove my beliefs on Him, but that's just me.

in other words, the ones who do end up in hell,it's not because they didn't pass the "eeny,meeny,miney,mo test".

Well, that slur against the doctrine kinda says it all, doesn't it?

[His son]

Russel, you've already answered your own questions and it's obvious that the Holy Spirit has revealed it to you. It did my heart good.

How can our salvation be predestined? It can't, because many of God's promises are conditioned on our obedience.

Yikes. Poor God, eh? He can only "perform" if we let Him, huh?

It would be cruel for God.....

"Cruel" by whose standards? I wouldn't be so arrogant to presume to know better than God and shove my beliefs on Him, but that's just me.

in other words, the ones who do end up in hell,it's not because they didn't pass the "eeny,meeny,miney,mo test".

Well, that slur against the doctrine kinda says it all, doesn't it?

I can't believe you would say something like poor God can't. You just refuse to accept responsibility for the freewill to choose who you will serve, and let me tell you that breaks His Fathers heart, because He knows that you will never be able to love Him as He is unless you accept everything of His person, just like He loves you and accepts you as you are. And He created you like Himself with freewill.

I don't know if you are a parent or not but put yourself in the place of God for a minute. You know that if your children are going to be what you desire them to be they are going to have to love you enough to obey you whether they want to or not because having tasted of your love for them they know that you have always given them what is best for them. And for that reason they will forgo their own will, and desire to obey you because of that love. Love is the most powerful force in this universe as demonstrated as far as law is concerned in the first two great commandments on which all the law and prophets hang. And True love can only exist with freewill, because true love is God's love, and is only expressed towards another. God doesn't need to love Himself, He is love. His desire for us to love Him is for our own best interests not His, and thats why He will not force it because He knows that we could never become love as He is if He did.

So any love that is not from ones freewill is not true love, it could only be self love, which only and always puts its own self's best interest above all others, and craves the love of others. Which love can only be expressed by them allowing themselves to totally controlled by them. If this submission doesn't happen there are severe consequences.

[jesussaves]

Yes..the Lord had a plan for our salvation from the beginning. His plan was Jesus and that whsoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

[Work in Progress]

I can't believe you would say something like poor God can't.

Um.........I didn't say that. Stevehut said it.

Sorry, HisSon, but it is obvious by your words that you don't understand what people believe concerning this doctrine. That was obvious in that, I pretty much agree with everything you said, except that last paragraph which I thought was a bit out in left field. You seem to have made up whatever it is that you think the doctrine is. It's fine to be 'on the other side' and disagree with it, but you should at least have a knowledge of what it is and why millions believe it is what Scripture teaches.

Amen Jesussaves!

[His son]

I can't believe you would say something like poor God can't.

Um.........I didn't say that. Stevehut said it.

Sorry, HisSon, but it is obvious by your words that you don't understand what people believe concerning this doctrine. That was obvious in that, I pretty much agree with everything you said, except that last paragraph which I thought was a bit out in left field. You seem to have made up whatever it is that you think the doctrine is. It's fine to be 'on the other side' and disagree with it, but you should at least have a knowledge of what it is and why millions believe it is what Scripture teaches.

Amen Jesussaves!

Sorry about the wrong identification. The last paragraph was for the purpose of showing that God's pure love is the only atmospere that freewill choice can exist in.

As far as understanding what the other side believes, I was there for a number of years, so don't make the same mistake I did and assume wrongly about someone else.

[Work in Progress]

Sorry, all I can do is make a judgement based on what you say. You make mistatements and untruths about those who believe Calvin's teachings on the Holy Scripture, so I can only discern that you really have no idea what it is that a 'Calvanist' believes. And, it is totally wrong to to misrepresent what they do believe - whether by ignorance or willfully.

[The Journey]

Could it be that yet again we have a paradox?

Both divine election and free will are true.

How can this be?

I don't know. But then where we find paradox we find truth.

Spiritual pride says that we have God all figured out. He cannot do this or that. He always does this or that. We should repent of our pride and grow beyond our small little god.

- Steve

[traveller]

Could it be that yet again we have a paradox?

Both divine election and free will are true.

How can this be?

I don't know. But then where we find paradox we find truth.

Spiritual pride says that we have God all figured out. He cannot do this or that. He always does this or that. We should repent of our pride and grow beyond our small little god.

- Steve

Amen Steve! Well said. Jobs friends thought they had God all figured out as well. And, it seems God had a few things to say about that.

[tsth]

Yes, I believe it is a paradox of sorts. But, a trap for those who will get caught up in the debate. To me it seems as a diversion tactic, for the whole of the matter is this:

That we are all SINNERS and must repent of that sin, whether we believe we are saved or not. We must repent and believe on Jesus Christ and be saved.....period. Whether we agree with Calvin or not, is beside the point. Whether we believe in election or not, is beside the point. It still will always come down to the fact that we are sinners and must repent and believe in the saving grace and power of Jesus Christ, to deliver us, no matter who we are.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Could it be that yet again we have a paradox?

Both divine election and free will are true.

How can this be?

I don't know.  But then where we find paradox we find truth.

Spiritual pride says that we have God all figured out.  He cannot do this or that.  He always does this or that.  We should repent of our pride and grow beyond our small little god.

- Steve

Amen Steve! Well said. Jobs friends thought they had God all figured out as well. And, it seems God had a few things to say about that.

I agree with you traveller. The book of Job is so very interesting. Especially if you've gone through it "after" an election debate. I've done that before, and the Book is very interesting in that light.

Apparently Elihu, speaking truth to Job, was the clencher in the story. There was something significant about Elihu, just speaking the Truth in love to Job, that set the ending in motion. A pretty awesome story of spiritual relationships and truth.

I'm glad you mentioned it. I might just need to visit ol Job and Elihu again.

In His Love,

Suzanne