Another take on "Free Will"

[Thaddaeus]

ParanoidAndroid,

This seems to me the best understanding of Romans 9. I've tried interpreting it other ways, but I feel like I'm just jumping through hoops to reinterpret something that is pretty straight forward. If you have an interpretation that I haven't considered, feel free to share it with us all. All the best,

the discourse of Rom 9-11 is not even about believers. It is addressing whom Christ came to save. The discourse is a simulation of Paul speaking to hypotheical Judiazers. The Jews were under the impression that they and they only were to receive the blessings of God. They were to receive on the basis of natural birth. If one was a Jew, one was automatically saved.

Then Paul clearly points out that the salvation of an individual is not by any other means than by faith. He states that "they are not all Israel who are of Israel. vs 6. He goes on to further delineate the difference. The summation of that whole discourse is that God will have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32. He makes the equation with Adam. God allowed or consigned all to disobedience, (death) so that He might have mercy upon all.

It is the salvation of mankind, the human race, that is in sight in this discourse, not believers at all.

This goes back to what Paul has already declared in Rom 5:18-19. It is the meaning and understanding of the Incarnation of Christ. Christ assuming our fallen human natures to raise them from mortal to immortality. The fall of man, our human natures, precluded man having an eternal union or communion with God, for which we were created. Since man cannot give himself life, Christ became man/God, through the Incarnation to bring life back to man. So that man could freely, for an eternity, join with God starting even in this life.

[BurnForChrist]

ParanoidAndroid,

This seems to me the best understanding of Romans 9. I've tried interpreting it other ways, but I feel like I'm just jumping through hoops to reinterpret something that is pretty straight forward. If you have an interpretation that I haven't considered, feel free to share it with us all. All the best,

the discourse of Rom 9-11 is not even about believers. It is addressing whom Christ came to save. The discourse is a simulation of Paul speaking to hypotheical Judiazers. The Jews were under the impression that they and they only were to receive the blessings of God. They were to receive on the basis of natural birth. If one was a Jew, one was automatically saved.

Then Paul clearly points out that the salvation of an individual is not by any other means than by faith. He states that "they are not all Israel who are of Israel. vs 6. He goes on to further delineate the difference. The summation of that whole discourse is that God will have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32. He makes the equation with Adam. God allowed or consigned all to disobedience, (death) so that He might have mercy upon all.

It is the salvation of mankind, the human race, that is in sight in this discourse, not believers at all.

This goes back to what Paul has already declared in Rom 5:18-19. It is the meaning and understanding of the Incarnation of Christ. Christ assuming our fallen human natures to raise them from mortal to immortality. The fall of man, our human natures, precluded man having an eternal union or communion with God, for which we were created. Since man cannot give himself life, Christ became man/God, through the Incarnation to bring life back to man. So that man could freely, for an eternity, join with God starting even in this life.

That is NOT what Romans 9-11 is about at all! The main question that is being implied of the text is that if GOD has promised Israel all of these things, given them the law, promises, etc. then why are so many rejecting Christ and being cut off? In other words if GOD didn't uphold hold his promises in the Old Tesament, then what makes us think he will do so in this new testament?

So the Holy Spirit through Paul, shows the freedom/soverignty and justice of GOD in election, the reasoning by Israels rejection and elaborates Israel's current condition. It is one of the most important pieces of scripture to have when dealing with the justice of GOD. It is also one of the toughest texts in all of Scripture. He goes on explaing how GOD has went to the gentiles and his purpse in doing so, and He explains through the Old Tesament, how this was something shown through the prophets, psalms and so on.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I have to admit that you came up with some pretty good scriptures and for these individuals spoken of in these scriptures they were predestined to fulfill the purposes of God and it seems that they had no choice in the matter.

But I still have a real problem with predestination for all. If we are all predestined to do certain things in this life from before we are born then those who have taken the evil road have no chance of salvation because they were predestined to do evil and nothing can change that. They were born to suffer in hell after living on this earth.

This is where the idea of Hell comes into doctrine. The view of hell being a place of eternal suffering is only one possible interpretation of scripture. To go into this in too much detail will take us off the topic of free will, but I will suffice it to say that there are other interpretations of hell, using scripture, many of which are much more biblically correct than "eternal suffering".

So if the those who are predestined to hate God, who are going to suffer in hell for hating God which God put it into them to hate Him had no choice or free will in the matter. Why are we spending so much time, money and energy into reaching out to all of the lost and dieing in the world, who were predestined by God to be lost and dieing.

Because we are human, and as such we DO NOT KNOW who will be saved or who will not be saved. It is very possible that a person's salvation is to come through your words. It is not up to us to sit back and say "Oh well, if people are predestined, then I don't have to do anything", because that would deny the scriptures and their commands to spread the gospel to all nations. It is a fact that God acts through human beings. By not spreading the word, we are disobeying the commands of our Saviour. By passing over an opportunity to share the gospel, we are in fact saying to God - "you're not powerful enough to save this person, so we'll just ignore him". Which is completely wrong, because our God can do anything.

Being predestined does not mean that our personal responsibility has been absolved. If you see a baby crawling across the road at a busy intersection, and you choose not to act, is it going to make you feel better when it gets run over if you say "Oh well, I was predestined to not save it". You will still be held accountable, because you did not act, even if it was destined.

In fact why did Christ come and sacrifice Himself for those who are already saved because they were predestined by God to be saved even before they were born. Even Christ had a choice in the matter. Matthew 26:53 & 53 "Didn't you know that I could now pray to My Father, and He shall presently give Me more then twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled that this might be?".

I don't see Jesus having a choice here. Jesus is speaking to his disciple who tried to protect Jesus by drawing his sword and attacking the guard. Jesus rebuked him, and told him that he was powerful enough to save himself, but he was not going to do so, so leave things be.

Galations 1:4 "Who (Christ) gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world according to the will of God our Father".

The word "gave" in this verse is talking about a how Christ willingly gave Himself for our sins. If we were predestined to be sinners by the will of God. What good was the willing sacrifice of Christ? Why did Christ need to fulfill scripture if we were all predestined to be good or bad.

Jesus gave himself up, according to the will of God. As to why this happened, I can only answer with the cop-out response - Because it was God's plan. In Romans 9, which I quoted in my earlier post, Paul answers that questions with "who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?." (9:20-21) It's not an ideal answer. I don't like that answer, and it certainly won't convince anyone who doesn't already believe the infallibility of scripture. But it's the answer given by Paul - who are you to talk back to the almighty.

What good is it for God to create us to love or hate Him.

What you are saying is that gay people were predestined by God to be born gay who have no chance of salvation, who are going to suffer eternal darkness because God predestined them to that darkness and the same goes for drug addicts, murderers, thieves, prostitutes, drunkards and so on.

Not at all. Gay people may have been predestined to be gay. There is argument that being gay may even be genetic (please, let's not get into that argument though). However, being gay IS NOT A SIN. It is the action one does in having homosexual sex that is a sin. A homosexual has the same criteria for being saved as a heterosexual - accept Jesus and live for him. We all struggle with sin. For some, it's drugs/alcohol. For others it might be job/career overtaking their walk with God. For others it might be pornography (something I have struggled with at times). And for some, it's homosexuality. Being gay is not a sin, and I hope you realise that. It is acting on that sin, which makes it sin.

No way Hosa. Why is it, do you think, that we receive eternal life only after we except Christ as our Lord and Saviour? Predestination would mean that we were born with the Holy Spirit already in us and already going to heaven and having already excepted Christ from the minute we are out of our mothers womb.

You are implying here that someone who is "predestined" is going to be a Christ-follower from birth. But we know this is not the case. Many people do not become Christian until much later in life. God works differently in each and every one of us. God works on an eternal scale, while we work on a physical scale. This argument holds no water, but I can see why you would make it.

There are some special times when God exercises his control on certain individuals but predestination for all. The Muslims have already proven that the concept of predestination is a very dangerous belief and that justifies out right sin.

I hope you change your mind on predestination. Christ is our example and if He had a choice so do we.

Robert

Predestination does not give us the right to sin. The Muslims take things too far, though it should be noted that these are just the extremists - most moderate Muslims condemn suicide bombings as much as any other person. Romans 6 shows us that we cannot continue to live in sin because we have become slaves to righteousness, how can we still be slaves to sin.

Our will is not free, but it is real. Real Will, means being accountable for our actions, even if they were predestined. If you go down the path that just because something's been predestined then you can sin and hold no consequence, then you do not understand scripture at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In short, I can see what you are saying, but I do not think you are right. As I said in my last post, if you ever research the Age of Enlightenment, you might get an idea of the historical concept of free will and predestination.

~ Regards, PA

[ParanoidAndroid]

the discourse of Rom 9-11 is not even about believers. It is addressing whom Christ came to save. The discourse is a simulation of Paul speaking to hypotheical Judiazers. The Jews were under the impression that they and they only were to receive the blessings of God. They were to receive on the basis of natural birth. If one was a Jew, one was automatically saved.

Then Paul clearly points out that the salvation of an individual is not by any other means than by faith. He states that "they are not all Israel who are of Israel. vs 6. He goes on to further delineate the difference. The summation of that whole discourse is that God will have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32. He makes the equation with Adam. God allowed or consigned all to disobedience, (death) so that He might have mercy upon all.

It is the salvation of mankind, the human race, that is in sight in this discourse, not believers at all.

This goes back to what Paul has already declared in Rom 5:18-19. It is the meaning and understanding of the Incarnation of Christ. Christ assuming our fallen human natures to raise them from mortal to immortality. The fall of man, our human natures, precluded man having an eternal union or communion with God, for which we were created. Since man cannot give himself life, Christ became man/God, through the Incarnation to bring life back to man. So that man could freely, for an eternity, join with God starting even in this life.

Thank you for that. I do see your point, but I don't think it answers all the questions posed in Romans 9. Why, for example, would Paul start asking the question of what if those who are prepared for destruction are done so to show God's power and glory to those who were prepared for salvation. Why, when answering a question predestination does Paul reply "Who are you to talk back to God".

As I said, I've tried fitting other explanations of this passage to remove the idea of predestination, but every time I do so, I feel like I'm jumping through hoops

[MeCajunboy]

(an aside to P.A.: i can't quite wrap myself around predestination even tho if you really think about it, it would be a much more comfortable viewpoint.)

You think so? I guess there is a certain charm to holding the belief that God is in control of everything. But it doesn't make sense to me. To me, it makes sooooooo much more sense that free will exists. Our existence on earth is a direct result of God's divine judgement that we can choose to follow him or not follow him. that is the point of our existence.

The problem is, after reading the Bible, I found it said something quite different. Though free will makes much more sense to me than predestination, the fact that I believe in the words of the Bible have led me to only two possible scenarios. 1 - I could ignore the words of the Bible and take the comfortable route that makes more sense to me as a human. Or 2 - I could change my belief to suit the Bible.

As a Christian who follows the Bible, I have no choice but to do the latter. The problem with going with what makes sense is why rely too much on our own personal feelings and experiences, and stop relying on God. If it were up to me, I would allow women to preach and happily endorse homosexual marriage. But I know this is against God's wishes. And when my understanding and God's understanding conflict, the only possible answer is to concede to God's wishes.

At least, that's how I view it

~ PA

Cajun:::Forgive me for saying so PA, but you made the comment in your above paragraph that you are a "Christian who follows the Bible?" Did you not recently tell us that your "support" those who feel that homosexuality is bestowed by God?" That is not alligned with the Word of God! If you have found that to be a direct quote, please inform the rest of us!

[Thaddaeus]

ParanoidAndroid,

Our will is not free, but it is real. Real Will, means being accountable for our actions, even if they were predestined.

This is an outright contradiction. Respective of believers, one cannot be predestined and then be held accountable. It holds for the same with beleivers and those that do not believe.

Thank you for that. I do see your point, but I don't think it answers all the questions posed in Romans 9. Why, for example, would Paul start asking the question of what if those who are prepared for destruction are done so to show God's power and glory to those who were prepared for salvation. Why, when answering a question predestination does Paul reply "Who are you to talk back to God".

First there is no predestination of believers in Roman 9. Those prepared for destruction and with whom God showed great patience, until the time was right is Israel. Israel was forsaken because she left the fold. years of hardened disobedience and constant chastisment did not bring the desired result. Two captivities and still rebellion. He came to His own and they rejected Him. This led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD just as Jesus promised in the Olivet Discourse.

God's plan right from the very beginning, when He promised to Adam, was to send a redeemer to save mankind from the judgement that was placed upon Adam. That is why Christ is called the Second Adam. We as creatures had no say in our being created. We also had no say in our being redeemed. It is beyond man. It is beyond our understanding. But God created man for a purpose and He was going to see it through. God, through Christ, not only redeemed mankind, but the world. Man is an inherent part of the material world. The world suffered the result of that condemnation of death as well. If the world was redeemed, just how could one human being be missed?

None of the texts generally used by those who support Predestination has nothing directly to do with believers. Believers are not predestined to be believers. They as believers, those IN Christ, were foreknown and they were predestined to be conformed to the Image of Christ. The work of Christ in a believers life was predestined, not the believer to be one.

Christ Himself was predestined to be the Savior of the world. This is confirmed by Paul in summing up the whole discourse from Rom 9-11, in Rom 11:32.

[Mutzrein]

A question if you will. How much free will is required in order to be born?

In order to be born two people(male & female) must freely choose to procreate.

I'm not talking about those who choose to have a child. I'm talking about the child. Did you choose to be born?

God is in control of who is born and who is not. Even if a child is conceived because of a rape. God knew that child before it was in its mothers womb and when it is born and grows to the age of consent or the knowledge of good and bad it is at that time that the child has the God given choice between doing what is right and what is wrong. The Jewish aspect of the age of consent is 12. But I think that it depends on the individual.

And this is the point I would make. God is in control of who is born physically . . . and spiritually. It is not man's choice.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Cajun:::Forgive me for saying so PA, but you made the comment in your above paragraph that you are a "Christian who follows the Bible?" Did you not recently tell us that your "support" those who feel that homosexuality is bestowed by God?" That is not alligned with the Word of God! If you have found that to be a direct quote, please inform the rest of us!

Hi cajun,

No, I never - neither recently, or distantly - said any such thing as this.

I have said that I don't know how people turn to homosexuality. Genetics may play a part, or it may be environmental, or it may be a mixture of the two. I don't know if it's what you are referring to, but people may be misunderstanding my comment that "being gay is not a sin". I am talking about the feelings and emotions. Some people very well may not be able to control how they feel. Feelings like this are not sin. BUT THE ACT OF HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN. The action of one person engaging in sexual relations with a person of the same sex does constitute sin.

I hope that clears things up. I have never claimed anything along the lines of support for those who feel that homosexuality is bestowed by God. God is in control of everything in life, which would include a person's sexual orientation, but having feelings does not make it right.

All the best,

~ PA

Edited September 4, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid

[ParanoidAndroid]

ParanoidAndroid,

Our will is not free, but it is real. Real Will, means being accountable for our actions, even if they were predestined.

This is an outright contradiction. Respective of believers, one cannot be predestined and then be held accountable. It holds for the same with beleivers and those that do not believe.

I beg to differ. You may not like the answer. I don't even like the answer. But as Paul stated, what right does the pot have to say to the potter "Why did you make me like this?". It's not an answer many like to hear. I don't like it any more than you do. But I'm not going to deny it just because I don't like it.

As for the rest of your post, which I cut for the sake of brevity (I can't stand scrolling down through masses of quoted text), I find it an interesting perspective that this passage is aimed at Israel alone. I do agree that Paul is speaking about the Jews, but he intersperses this with reference to Gentiles - eg "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (9:23-24). I personally do not think this passage can be ignored just because he's speaking to Jews.

Historically, it's only been 300 years since humanity believed in free will. This is a fact. It is a fact that this concept was brought into the world by agnostics and atheists and a handful of Deists. It was brought in to deny the sovereignty of God. But then again, it's only been 200 years since the concept of the Rapture was first introduced to Christian theology, and many people have chosen to believe in this also. But that would take this discussion right off topic, methinks.

In all honesty, I don't think it really matters. Whether free will or predestination is the truth, that should not affect the way we live. It is not an essential doctrine, and believing or not believing in free will should not disqualify oneself from believing in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus for our sins. That's the end of it, as far as I'm concerned.

I wish you all the best in your journey, Thaddaeus.

~ Paranoid Android

Edited September 4, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid

[Thaddaeus]

ParanoidAndroid,

I beg to differ. You may not like the answer. I don't even like the answer. But as Paul stated, what right does the pot have to say to the potter "Why did you make me like this?". It's not an answer many like to hear. I don't like it any more than you do. But I'm not going to deny it just because I don't like it.

Two things,

First, the section of Rom 9-11 is not even addressing believers. It is addressing mankind. Man does not decide to be born or to be saved by Christ.

However, the salvation of our souls, which is the spiritual aspect of our existance has always been a mutual, synergistic relationship with Christ and it ONLY depends on the will of man to initiate or terminate that union. It is how we were created.

Predestination and man's will, respective of becoming or being a believer are anthethical to each other.

As for the rest of your post, which I cut for the sake of brevity (I can't stand scrolling down through masses of quoted text), I find it an interesting perspective that this passage is aimed at Israel alone.

It is talking about Israel, but it is aimed and has in mind, mankind. There are only two groups, Jews and Gentiles. The veil was rent while Christ was on the Cross. There now is no distinction between any kind of class, race or people. There is ONE, all human beings have been redeemed by Christ's on the Cross. This is what Paul was addressing in that discourse.

Historically, it's only been 300 years since humanity believed in free will. This is a fact. It is a fact that this concept was brought into the world by agnostics and atheists and a handful of Deists.

As I stated you better check your history again. The Bible is based on it. Adam was created, as are all human beings are with it. It is the highest order of any creature, that he be rational. It is why you are called a human being and not an animal. I quoted to you from the early Church Fathers. It has always been understood, the Apostles explained it as such. In the Bible it is obvious why they would have. You better really check your history again.

In all honesty, I don't think it really matters. Whether free will or predestination is the truth, that should not affect the way we live. It is not an essential doctrine, and believing or not believing in free will should not disqualify oneself from believing in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus for our sins. That's the end of it, as far as I'm concerned.

It doesn't matter. It is the heart, the core of Revelation to man. It is the key, the purpose, the intent of God, in His Sovereign will in creating man. It is the very heart of the Gospel and it is on this very point that we will be judged.

Predestination eliminates the purpose of man being created in God's Image. It removes man as being culpable, responsible for his actions. It eliminates faith, and man's free response to God's call to join with Him, as He desired by creating us. And you say, it dosen't matter. You should also recheck your Biblical studies as well. It shows how little your really understand about Salvation, the relationship of God with man.

It may not matter to you, only because you do not understand either one.