Another take on "Free Will"

[ParanoidAndroid]

As I stated you better check your history again. The Bible is based on it. Adam was created, as are all human beings are with it. It is the highest order of any creature, that he be rational. It is why you are called a human being and not an animal. I quoted to you from the early Church Fathers. It has always been understood, the Apostles explained it as such. In the Bible it is obvious why they would have. You better really check your history again.

I have. I checked and rechecked that history, and it tells me the exact same thing as before. Free will did not exist in humanity before the 18th century movement known as the Age of Enlightenment. From the philosophies of these early freethinkers came the view that God did not hold divine control over our lives. Some earlier discussion within Christianity had brought up this matter, and free will was posited, but it was at times squashed in favour of the sovereign God who had control of all.

I hope I don't offend, but I think it is you who really should check your history again.

It doesn't matter. It is the heart, the core of Revelation to man. It is the key, the purpose, the intent of God, in His Sovereign will in creating man. It is the very heart of the Gospel and it is on this very point that we will be judged.

Predestination eliminates the purpose of man being created in God's Image. It removes man as being culpable, responsible for his actions. It eliminates faith, and man's free response to God's call to join with Him, as He desired by creating us. And you say, it dosen't matter. You should also recheck your Biblical studies as well. It shows how little your really understand about Salvation, the relationship of God with man.

Funny about that, I was going to ask you to do the same thing. You really need to recheck your Biblical studies. You don't understand the concept of "Real Will". Just because our lives are predetermined doesn't mean we are off-the-hook. Right now, here in the present, you have the choice to do or not do something. I have the choice to reply in a civil manner, or I have the choice of screaming and yelling to get my point across. These are choices that I make, here and now. When it is over and done, it has happened, and we know that that was what was predestined to happen. But while it was happening, I very much had the choice. Therefore, I very much have the responsibility here and now to ensure I live my life according to God's will. And make no mistake, I will be held accountable, as will everyone else.

You are making the non-biblical step that predestination absolves us of everything we do.

It may not matter to you, only because you do not understand either one.

So you are telling me what I do and do not understand, now. A few posts and you think you know me. I understand better than most. I used to believe in free will. If I was having this discussion with you 2 years ago, I'd be right there with you, saying that God gave us the free will to choose. I'd say that our life here on Earth is God giving us the ability to choose to follow or not to follow. It makes sense this way.

Now, I believe in predestination, and you know what - my walk with God has not changed. I still intend to devote my life to the God who loved me so much that he chose to save me, a sinner, by giving his very life for me on the cross, and then rising in power. Believe me, friend - the difference does not matter and makes no difference.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wish you all the best, Thaddaeus, may the Peace and Love of our Lord Jesus be with you - Amen.

~ PA

Edited September 5, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid

[Thaddaeus]

ParanoidAndroid,

Free will did not exist in humanity before the 18th century movement known as the Age of Enlightenment. From the philosophies of these early freethinkers came the view that God did not hold divine control over our lives. Some earlier discussion within Christianity had brought up this matter, and free will was posited, but it was at times squashed in favour of the sovereign God who had control of all.

Christianity is not about God not having control over our lives. Isn't any wonder you think as you do. Your definition of free will, or man's moral agency is based on so-called free thinkers. Deist is a view diametrically opposed to Christianity. It is a transcendent God who simply puts the universe into motion and sits back and watches. Hardly anything Christianity teaches. Quite fatalistic concept.

I don't think you would be capable of offending me or any Christian. Christians and Christianity has been persecuted continuously for 2000 years for knowing and understanding that Truth. Satan has spent untold time trying to assail that Church and will never succeed. It is a futile battle.

When it is over and done, it has happened, and we know that that was what was predestined to happen. But while it was happening, I very much had the choice.

Check your defintions again. You have absolutely no understanding of the difference. You also seem, from your earlier post, have no understanding how God's providence works either, and in conjunction with the will of man. What you just described is the interconnection between the two. But predestination of man's actions is not included.

What happened was by your will. It may be in line with God's will or it might not have been. But it was your will, not God's will that decided. It was not in the least predestined. That is precisely the Deist view.

You are making the non-biblical step that predestination absolves us of everything we do.

Predestination of a believer is what is unscriptural. It has all to do with God's providence but nothing to do the the will of man. That is precisely why you have an incorrect view of it. It is because man has a will independent of God's will that we can even be judged. If it was predestined, if all of our actions were decreed, we have no responsibility. Again the Deist view. God set in motion and we are held to the master plan. God is even the agent of sin and the author of all the evil in this world. Hardly scriptural and surely not Christianity as it has been believed and practiced since the beginning.

So you are telling me what I do and do not understand, now

Suddenly when the shoe fits, the person squeaks. You have given me all the information to understand your view and how you see it. It just does not align with Scripture as it has always been understood. You have yet to give me any text, any historical evidence the same as I have, that your view actually is the historical view of Christianity. It has not changed for 2000 years. That constancy was not due to man, I can assure you. Especially when we have such vivid and every increasing multiplicity of faiths over the last 200 years, with most of them in the last 100. All man-made versions of some individuals futile attempt to create their own desired faith. All muddled in a sea of confusion.

The Bible prophecied that this is what mankind can expect in the latter days. Maybe we are there.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this then. I wish you the best with your walk with God.

In Christ,

~ PA

[Guest]

SQUEAK! SQUEAK!

Suddenly when the shoe fits, the person squeaks.

.....freely ye have received, freely give.

Matthew 10:8

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 2:2

Talking Jesus All Day Long!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

[Thaddaeus]

ParanoidAndroid,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this then. I wish you the best with your walk with God.

Ok, that is fine.

[Massorite]

I have to admit that you came up with some pretty good scriptures and for these individuals spoken of in these scriptures they were predestined to fulfill the purposes of God and it seems that they had no choice in the matter.

But I still have a real problem with predestination for all. If we are all predestined to do certain things in this life from before we are born then those who have taken the evil road have no chance of salvation because they were predestined to do evil and nothing can change that. They were born to suffer in hell after living on this earth.

This is where the idea of Hell comes into doctrine. The view of hell being a place of eternal suffering is only one possible interpretation of scripture. To go into this in too much detail will take us off the topic of free will, but I will suffice it to say that there are other interpretations of hell, using scripture, many of which are much more biblically correct than "eternal suffering".

So if the those who are predestined to hate God, who are going to suffer in hell for hating God which God put it into them to hate Him had no choice or free will in the matter. Why are we spending so much time, money and energy into reaching out to all of the lost and dieing in the world, who were predestined by God to be lost and dieing.

Because we are human, and as such we DO NOT KNOW who will be saved or who will not be saved. It is very possible that a person's salvation is to come through your words. It is not up to us to sit back and say "Oh well, if people are predestined, then I don't have to do anything", because that would deny the scriptures and their commands to spread the gospel to all nations. It is a fact that God acts through human beings. By not spreading the word, we are disobeying the commands of our Saviour. By passing over an opportunity to share the gospel, we are in fact saying to God - "you're not powerful enough to save this person, so we'll just ignore him". Which is completely wrong, because our God can do anything.

Being predestined does not mean that our personal responsibility has been absolved. If you see a baby crawling across the road at a busy intersection, and you choose not to act, is it going to make you feel better when it gets run over if you say "Oh well, I was predestined to not save it". You will still be held accountable, because you did not act, even if it was destined.

In fact why did Christ come and sacrifice Himself for those who are already saved because they were predestined by God to be saved even before they were born. Even Christ had a choice in the matter. Matthew 26:53 & 53 "Didn't you know that I could now pray to My Father, and He shall presently give Me more then twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled that this might be?".

I don't see Jesus having a choice here. Jesus is speaking to his disciple who tried to protect Jesus by drawing his sword and attacking the guard. Jesus rebuked him, and told him that he was powerful enough to save himself, but he was not going to do so, so leave things be.

Galations 1:4 "Who (Christ) gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil world according to the will of God our Father".

The word "gave" in this verse is talking about a how Christ willingly gave Himself for our sins. If we were predestined to be sinners by the will of God. What good was the willing sacrifice of Christ? Why did Christ need to fulfill scripture if we were all predestined to be good or bad.

Jesus gave himself up, according to the will of God. As to why this happened, I can only answer with the cop-out response - Because it was God's plan. In Romans 9, which I quoted in my earlier post, Paul answers that questions with "who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?." (9:20-21) It's not an ideal answer. I don't like that answer, and it certainly won't convince anyone who doesn't already believe the infallibility of scripture. But it's the answer given by Paul - who are you to talk back to the almighty.

What good is it for God to create us to love or hate Him.

What you are saying is that gay people were predestined by God to be born gay who have no chance of salvation, who are going to suffer eternal darkness because God predestined them to that darkness and the same goes for drug addicts, murderers, thieves, prostitutes, drunkards and so on.

Not at all. Gay people may have been predestined to be gay. There is argument that being gay may even be genetic (please, let's not get into that argument though). However, being gay IS NOT A SIN. It is the action one does in having homosexual sex that is a sin. A homosexual has the same criteria for being saved as a heterosexual - accept Jesus and live for him. We all struggle with sin. For some, it's drugs/alcohol. For others it might be job/career overtaking their walk with God. For others it might be pornography (something I have struggled with at times). And for some, it's homosexuality. Being gay is not a sin, and I hope you realise that. It is acting on that sin, which makes it sin.

No way Hosa. Why is it, do you think, that we receive eternal life only after we except Christ as our Lord and Saviour? Predestination would mean that we were born with the Holy Spirit already in us and already going to heaven and having already excepted Christ from the minute we are out of our mothers womb.

You are implying here that someone who is "predestined" is going to be a Christ-follower from birth. But we know this is not the case. Many people do not become Christian until much later in life. God works differently in each and every one of us. God works on an eternal scale, while we work on a physical scale. This argument holds no water, but I can see why you would make it.

There are some special times when God exercises his control on certain individuals but predestination for all. The Muslims have already proven that the concept of predestination is a very dangerous belief and that justifies out right sin.

I hope you change your mind on predestination. Christ is our example and if He had a choice so do we.

Robert

Predestination does not give us the right to sin. The Muslims take things too far, though it should be noted that these are just the extremists - most moderate Muslims condemn suicide bombings as much as any other person. Romans 6 shows us that we cannot continue to live in sin because we have become slaves to righteousness, how can we still be slaves to sin.

Our will is not free, but it is real. Real Will, means being accountable for our actions, even if they were predestined. If you go down the path that just because something's been predestined then you can sin and hold no consequence, then you do not understand scripture at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In short, I can see what you are saying, but I do not think you are right. As I said in my last post, if you ever research the Age of Enlightenment, you might get an idea of the historical concept of free will and predestination.

~ Regards, PA

The scriptures you quoted me in the first place do speak of how those people were predestined to do something according to the will of God (before they were born). Yet you speak of how we can wait until we are adults before we decide to turn our lives over to Christ. You are correct when you say that we all struggle with sin. So what is it when a drug addict decides to quit doing drugs and turn his life over to Christ? Was it a free will decision to quit doing drugs? Or did God predestine that person from birth to become a drug addict and then turn his life over to Christ? Or Did God Predestine him to be born and the4n turn into a drug addict and then turn his life over to Christ. It can not be both ways. If we are predestined we are predestined from before our birth by God just like the scriptures you quoted me. Or we have free will and the man made his own decision to turn his life over to Christ and to love God. If we are made by God to love him our love for him is useless. But if we Love God of our own free will God is Blessed by our choices.

By the way. The Jews believed that the lower reaches of the earth have three sections with three different names and one of those sections holds Paradise. Jesus told the thief "This day you shall be with me in Paradise" and then Christ first descended into the lower reaches of the earth and then rose from the grave three days later. I will do the research as you suggested and let you know what I think of it.

Be Blessed

[antiaging]

Hi Cajunboy,

I'm personally of the view that the Bible teaches predestination. Romans 9 and Romans 6 are of particular value, as is 1 Peter 2:8. Exodus contains at least 4 references to God "hardening Pharaoh's heart", which implies he had no free will, though on other occassions, it states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so it sounds like God did harden the heart, but it was Pharaoh who allowed it.

But thank you for the post, it is correct that the language now is different to what it was back then and the language needs to be understood in its proper historical context. Would you mind sharing the passages that speak of man's will that you have found? You said taht you found 8 references to this in the Bible, I'd be interested to see these to see how they affect the belief of free will.

Thanks mate

~ Paranoid Android

Pharoah hardedned his own heart, and God went along with his decision and hardened it further.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Look at that verse. It is your decision to take heed how you hear. And how you decide to hear will determine if you are given more or if more will be taken from you.

How you hear the teachings of Jesus will determine if you will understand more truth or go further into error.

This universe that God created has a principle of momentum. An object will continue to move in the same direction until acted on by another force. The way you decide to go, it will be given to you to keep going in that direction.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Luke 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

It is your free will to ask, or not to ask; to seek, or not to seek; to knock, or not to knock.

[MeCajunboy]

As I stated you better check your history again. The Bible is based on it. Adam was created, as are all human beings are with it. It is the highest order of any creature, that he be rational. It is why you are called a human being and not an animal. I quoted to you from the early Church Fathers. It has always been understood, the Apostles explained it as such. In the Bible it is obvious why they would have. You better really check your history again.

I have. I checked and rechecked that history, and it tells me the exact same thing as before. Free will did not exist in humanity before the 18th century movement known as the Age of Enlightenment. From the philosophies of these early freethinkers came the view that God did not hold divine control over our lives. Some earlier discussion within Christianity had brought up this matter, and free will was posited, but it was at times squashed in favour of the sovereign God who had control of all.

I hope I don't offend, but I think it is you who really should check your history again.

It doesn't matter. It is the heart, the core of Revelation to man. It is the key, the purpose, the intent of God, in His Sovereign will in creating man. It is the very heart of the Gospel and it is on this very point that we will be judged.

Predestination eliminates the purpose of man being created in God's Image. It removes man as being culpable, responsible for his actions. It eliminates faith, and man's free response to God's call to join with Him, as He desired by creating us. And you say, it dosen't matter. You should also recheck your Biblical studies as well. It shows how little your really understand about Salvation, the relationship of God with man.

Funny about that, I was going to ask you to do the same thing. You really need to recheck your Biblical studies. You don't understand the concept of "Real Will". Just because our lives are predetermined doesn't mean we are off-the-hook. Right now, here in the present, you have the choice to do or not do something. I have the choice to reply in a civil manner, or I have the choice of screaming and yelling to get my point across. These are choices that I make, here and now. When it is over and done, it has happened, and we know that that was what was predestined to happen. But while it was happening, I very much had the choice. Therefore, I very much have the responsibility here and now to ensure I live my life according to God's will. And make no mistake, I will be held accountable, as will everyone else.

You are making the non-biblical step that predestination absolves us of everything we do.

It may not matter to you, only because you do not understand either one.

So you are telling me what I do and do not understand, now. A few posts and you think you know me. I understand better than most. I used to believe in free will. If I was having this discussion with you 2 years ago, I'd be right there with you, saying that God gave us the free will to choose. I'd say that our life here on Earth is God giving us the ability to choose to follow or not to follow. It makes sense this way.

Now, I believe in predestination, and you know what - my walk with God has not changed. I still intend to devote my life to the God who loved me so much that he chose to save me, a sinner, by giving his very life for me on the cross, and then rising in power. Believe me, friend - the difference does not matter and makes no difference.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I wish you all the best, Thaddaeus, may the Peace and Love of our Lord Jesus be with you - Amen.

~ PA

Cajun:::::Gentlemen, shouldn't our concerns be aligned with God's concerns. "other than "first man going against "God's Will," which is eveidence enough for me to believe that man was created with "Free Will, " the next real concern God had for man's ability to make decisions on their own, and most were "wrong," were the Israelites. And so God, in order to get their attention, allowed them to roam the desert and around the same mountains for 40 years. And actually , the original people who fled from Israel searching for the "Promised Land" all died on the journey....ALL BUT TWO of the originals. The remainder were all decendants of the original community.

PA, earliest History records may be from around the 18 century, but you're only talking about 1800 years. We don't even have good records on the History of Jesus as far as that's concerned.

Predestination can only be conceivable in God's eyes.....NOT MANS!

[MeCajunboy]

So you are telling me what I do and do not understand, now. A few posts and you think you know me. I understand better than most. I used to believe in free will. If I was having this discussion with you 2 years ago, I'd be right there with you, saying that God gave us the free will to choose. I'd say that our life here on Earth is God giving us the ability to choose to follow or not to follow. It makes sense this way.

Now, I believe in predestination, and you know what - my walk with God has not changed. I still intend to devote my life to the God who loved me so much that he chose to save me, a sinner, by giving his very life for me on the cross, and then rising in power. Believe me, friend - the difference does not matter and makes no difference

Now, I believe in predestination, and you know what - my walk with God has not changed. I still intend to devote my life to the God who loved me so much that he chose to save me, a sinner, by giving his very life for me on the cross, and then rising in power. Believe me, friend - the difference does not matter and makes no difference.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cajun:to PA: I'd be curious to know what "changed" your thoughts on "Free Will?" Did it have anything to do with your life specifically or just something you have come to learn about the history of predestination?

[ParanoidAndroid]

Hi cajun,

The only thing that made me change my belief was a consistent reading of the Bible. There was no special event or experience that caused me to realise this. Of course, it appears that people have come to a different conclusion using the exact same passages as I did. Though I don't agree with them, I do thank God then that it's not an essential doctrine we're talking about

All the best,

~ PA