The Sermon on the Mount

[Phil.2:12]

[

We can certainly agree to disagree on this, but let me comment on your points quoted above. If by fruits, in this context, you mean the result of one's ministy, i.e. people saved, healed, delivered, ect., then these "lawless ones" (workers of iniquity)had real fruit. They declare this to Jesus and He never contradicts them. Jesus just calls them "lawless".

Well, Greg, it seems that you like setting up straw men that you can convently knock down with your arguments. The "fruits" that Jesus was talking about were not the "fruits" that you set up, namely the result of one's ministry, but rather the "fruits" that Jesus is talking about results from following the Father's will as He was doing. It has nothing to do with "works" and everything to do with total obedience to our Heavenly Father at all times. I have accepted Jesus' take on "fruits" as my own personal explanation of what "fruits" really are, namely obediently doing my Father's will at all times. Sadly to say, I fall very short of the goal in my daily walk with Jesus, but at least I'm still trying and Jesus is still teaching me when I fall so that I can improve my walk on a daily basis.

As for agreeing to disagree, that is a given when we see the Word of God in different lights. I cannot agree with you that those whom Jesus was referring to (Not everyone that calls me Lord, Lord) were in any way born again, for the context simply does not support such a position. But you set up the straw men so you are free to either prop them up or knock them down as you see fit.

[antiaging]

Well, I read over the Sermon on the Mount yesterday. I was confused by a few things, and was wondering if someone could clear it up for me.

Matthew 5

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

How does this fit in with "There is no one righteous" and the idea of salvation by faith? The same thing with verse 22 (Saying that those who show contempt to their brothers are in danger of hell). I thought our works did not bring about our salvation, but rather our faith.

Matthew 5

48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Being perfect is obviously impossible while on earth, did Jesus mean "strive to be perfect"?

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

What does this mean? I know that performing miracles in the name of Jesus alone isn't enough, but wouldn't someone doing these things need to truly have faith that they are saved by Jesus?

Thanks everyone.

You must believe in Jesus and repent of sin to be saved. You cannot earn salvation by doing good works. Repenting is trying to NOT DO bad works.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The pharisees were a bunch of hypocrite sinners that were not really righteous.

That verse there is no one righteous was used to indicate that all need to be saved. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. You need to try to not do bad works. Don't call a brother in Christ a fool. A real brother in Christ has the Holy Spirit of God guiding them.

Yes, strive to be perfect.

You don't need to be saved to work miracles. There are atheists psychics that can do healing by the laying on of hands. Jesus said that false prophets would be working great miracles.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Look at it like this. The devils possess people and put diseases on them. A real Christian through faith in the name of Jesus can force the devil out, by the power of God, and the person is no longer possessed or no longer sick.

Devils want to deceive people into going to hell. A fake preacher, that is preaching false doctrine, when he tries to heal the sick or cast out devils, the devils come out of their own free will, or the devil stops putting on the disease of his own free will. This is a deception. It is to make the people believe that the fake preacher is really acting in God's will when he really is not. That will cause people to follow his false doctrine and end up in hell.

You must check any preachers doctrine to see if it goes along with the bible or not. His doctrine can be true or false and yet he can do miracles.

[hr.jr.]

Well, I read over the Sermon on the Mount yesterday. I was confused by a few things, and was wondering if someone could clear it up for me.

Matthew 5

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

How does this fit in with "There is no one righteous" and the idea of salvation by faith? The same thing with verse 22 (Saying that those who show contempt to their brothers are in danger of hell). I thought our works did not bring about our salvation, but rather our faith.

Matthew 5

48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Being perfect is obviously impossible while on earth, did Jesus mean "strive to be perfect"?

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

What does this mean? I know that performing miracles in the name of Jesus alone isn't enough, but wouldn't someone doing these things need to truly have faith that they are saved by Jesus?

Thanks everyone.

God only has two standards for judging a human. Righteous, or total depravity. When He sees us, we are one of the two. There is no middle ground, no degrees, merely one or the other. You are either righteous, or you are guilty of violating the entire law. There is no middle ground.

Perfection and righteousness go hand in hand.

As to verse 21, There will be many false prophets. False prophets falsly prophesy in the name of Jesus. False prophets can cause a level of faith to rise within the individial that allows the faith of the possessed person to actually drive the demon from themselves. False prophets can preach the true word of God and the Word brings deliverance and power.

The Word possesses the power. The messenger does not have to be sincere for the message to be effective.

[Phil.2:12]

Well, I read over the Sermon on the Mount yesterday. I was confused by a few things, and was wondering if someone could clear it up for me.

Matthew 5

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

How does this fit in with "There is no one righteous" and the idea of salvation by faith? The same thing with verse 22 (Saying that those who show contempt to their brothers are in danger of hell). I thought our works did not bring about our salvation, but rather our faith.

Matthew 5

48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Being perfect is obviously impossible while on earth, did Jesus mean "strive to be perfect"?

Matthew 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

What does this mean? I know that performing miracles in the name of Jesus alone isn't enough, but wouldn't someone doing these things need to truly have faith that they are saved by Jesus?

Thanks everyone.

You must believe in Jesus and repent of sin to be saved. You cannot earn salvation by doing good works. Repenting is trying to NOT DO bad works.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The pharisees were a bunch of hypocrite sinners that were not really righteous.

That verse there is no one righteous was used to indicate that all need to be saved. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. You need to try to not do bad works. Don't call a brother in Christ a fool. A real brother in Christ has the Holy Spirit of God guiding them.

Yes, strive to be perfect.

You don't need to be saved to work miracles. There are atheists psychics that can do healing by the laying on of hands. Jesus said that false prophets would be working great miracles.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Look at it like this. The devils possess people and put diseases on them. A real Christian through faith in the name of Jesus can force the devil out, by the power of God, and the person is no longer possessed or no longer sick.

Devils want to deceive people into going to hell. A fake preacher, that is preaching false doctrine, when he tries to heal the sick or cast out devils, the devils come out of their own free will, or the devil stops putting on the disease of his own free will. This is a deception. It is to make the people believe that the fake preacher is really acting in God's will when he really is not. That will cause people to follow his false doctrine and end up in hell.

You must check any preachers doctrine to see if it goes along with the bible or not. His doctrine can be true or false and yet he can do miracles.

Excellent Antiaging, excellent. Would that more people understood what Satan is about so that Born Again believers could see the deceptions around them and leave them alone. But it is quite difficult to see when your eyes are shut tight.

[hr.jr.]

A subject that not many Christians have explored is the power Satan has to prophesy, drive out demons, and perform many miracles. .

If you are suggesting that the individuals referred to in Matt 7 are satanic and were never saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, think again.

This prophecy by Jesus Himself, declares that these indviduals referred to Him as Lord and did the miracles in His name. Jesus never contradicts these assertions and we should not assume they are not true, but we should take Jesus's words for what they say.

The Matt 7 scriptures don't contrast the saved with the unsaved but rather the difference between those who have received Him as Saviour and have operated in the gifts of the Spirit with false motives, not doing the Lord's will, and those whose motives were godly, in accordance with His will.

Notice Jesus's conclusion about how a man builds a house on sand or rock and compare this with I Cor 3:10-15 for an interesting insight. God bless, Greg.

First. Satan does not drive out Satan, Jesus was plain about that. That should be a point that is not even open to discussion. When we have plain teaching from our Savior concerning a Subject, why contradict what He so simply stated?

"But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub,[a] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?"

"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come."

"Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. 18If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub. 19Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you."

Now that we have established that men do not cast out demons by the power of Satan, the discussion can progress.

Secondly, Those mentioned in 7 are not saved. They simply can not be. Jesus tells them to "depart from Me, I NEVER KNEW YOU." What part of "I never knew you" needs clarification?

[Guest Greg Davies]

We never attain perfection here on earth,

The verses you quoted state my position on perfection, so Iam confused by what you think being perfect means?

[Guest Greg Davies]

First. Satan does not drive out Satan, Jesus was plain about that.

Now that we have established that men do not cast out demons by the power of Satan, the discussion can progress.

Secondly, Those mentioned in 7 are not saved. They simply can not be. Jesus tells them to "depart from Me, I NEVER KNEW YOU." What part of "I never knew you" needs clarification?

O.K. If we these people in Chap.7 weren't casting out demons by Satan (which we all agree on) and they weren't saved and filled with the Holy Ghost (which we don't agree on), then the only other option that I can see is that they were lying to Jesus about the effectiveness of their ministries. It was all make believe. They were fake ministers or whatever.

Is that your position?

[hr.jr.]

First. Satan does not drive out Satan, Jesus was plain about that.

Now that we have established that men do not cast out demons by the power of Satan, the discussion can progress.

Secondly, Those mentioned in 7 are not saved. They simply can not be. Jesus tells them to "depart from Me, I NEVER KNEW YOU." What part of "I never knew you" needs clarification?

O.K. If we these people in Chap.7 weren't casting out demons by Satan (which we all agree on) and they weren't saved and filled with the Holy Ghost (which we don't agree on), then the only other option that I can see is that they were lying to Jesus about the effectiveness of their ministries. It was all make believe. They were fake ministers or whatever.

Is that your position?

Yes. They were phony ministers faking the operation of the gifts of the Spirit for profit.

However, in their act of deception for profit; the true Word was being preached. The word is living, and powerful. The Gospel Saves, delivers, and drives out demonic spirits. Even though Charletons were preaching the Gospel, the Gospel still contained its power; thus miracles were seen in their ministry.

[Eddie B]

We never attain perfection here on earth,

The verses you quoted state my position on perfection, so I'm confused by what you think being perfect means?

Perhaps we don't disagree basically. It's the "never attain perfection on earth" quote I think contradicts scripture. Greg.

[Guest Greg Davies]

O.K. If we these people in Chap.7 weren't casting out demons by Satan (which we all agree on) and they weren't saved and filled with the Holy Ghost (which we don't agree on), then the only other option that I can see is that they were lying to Jesus about the effectiveness of their ministries. It was all make believe. They were fake ministers or whatever.

Is that your position?

Yes. They were phony ministers faking the operation of the gifts of the Spirit for profit.

However, in their act of deception for profit; the true Word was being preached. The word is living, and powerful. The Gospel Saves, delivers, and drives out demonic spirits. Even though Charletons were preaching the Gospel, the Gospel still contained its power; thus miracles were seen in their ministry.