forrestkc Posted October 5, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2007 Hey Forrest, I appreciate the answer. As someone planning to go into Biology education (along with a lesser focus on Physics and Math), I always find posts regarding those subjects interesting. Now what you had brought up is what I believe to be a major flaw in the current view of science. If there is a personal God who actually does have an effect on the world, we are bound to come across things that cannot be explained if we insist on studying the world from a completely Godless perspective. Miracles for example, would be impossible. What I fail to see is how ID breaks biology. The definition of biology (and thus the ability to break it) is man made, and therefore cannot be treated as completely accurate. It is certainly within God's ability to either set in effect the cause and effect relationship that would make ID (or literal creation) possible, and God also is not bound by any of the laws that we are bound by in the event that He decides to break them. Especially the ones that we have invented ourselves as a way of explaining life (the two fundamental laws of biology that you posted for example). Science is a product of man, just like language, literature (excluding the Bible), algebra, engineering and so on. At any rate, thats really beside the point. You are interjecting philosophy into science which is essentially like trying to use calculus to diagram a sentence. We are talking about two completely distinct fields. There are numerous ways that creation could be accomplished. For all we know, God could have set in motion some massive force that sped up time and quickly allowed the development of a world appearing older. He could have just decided it was time for the world to exist, and created it instantly in the same way he created the universe (or the original condensed particle in the big bang if you prefer). An athiest scientist is basically forced to agree with evolution and the fact that the natural laws simply exist. We, as Christians, have other options. Scientists are not all atheists though. In fact many are not. No one is forcing any scientist to agree with evolution. The problem is that it is the only theory that has any positive empirical evidence for it. A scientist that was a Christian would simply say that: The Bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeilanS Posted October 5, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 158 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,763 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/14/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/23/1990 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Science is a product of man, just like language, literature (excluding the Bible), algebra, engineering and so on. At any rate, thats really beside the point. You are interjecting philosophy into science which is essentially like trying to use calculus to diagram a sentence. We are talking about two completely distinct fields. I see where you're coming from, but is it not possible that one field directly effects the others? If God created the universe, it seems logical to me that ignoring Him would upset everything, not just philosophy. Looking at things scientifically with no mention of God, of course creation and ID are impossible, there's no God! I think the mistake is that we assume that things can be discovered through science while pushing God to the side. Scientists are not all atheists though. In fact many are not. No one is forcing any scientist to agree with evolution. The problem is that it is the only theory that has any positive empirical evidence for it. A scientist that was a Christian would simply say that: The Bible “contains all things necessary to salvation”. It is the inspired and authoritative source of truth about God, Christ, and the Christian life. However, the Bible does not contain all necessary truths about everything else. The Bible, including Genesis, is not a divinely dictated scientific textbook. We discover scientific knowledge about God’s universe in nature not Scripture. I can agree with this. I believe in creation, but I would never suggest that one cannot be a Christian and an evolutionist at the same time. I just fear that it will lead to other things, like denying Christs physical resurrection (which is just as "impossible" as a six-day creation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 LOOKING INTO TOMORROW The Beginning - A World Of Water - The Flaming Cosmos "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:3-10 Jesus Is The Only Gate Into The City Made By God "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14 Into The New Jerusalem "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." science deals strictly with the physical universe: observable, testable, repeatable - empirical/experimental the supernatural doesn't even register with naturalistic scientists, and by default it is excluded Amen! THE HOLY BIBLE The Investigative Tools Of Science Are No More Intended To Deal With God's Truth Or To Defend Souls From Satan's Lies Than A Babies Rattle. For That Kind Of Work You Need A Mighty Weapon Of War, Even The Sword Forged By God Himself... "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 And The Power Of God To Skillfully Wield It. "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" Ephesians 6:17 Did You Know God's Sword Is A Family Heirloom. "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Romans 8:15-17 Even As We Wield This Sword We Know In Whom The Victory Belongs "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11 We Weep "He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him." Psalms 126:6 And We Rejoice "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 2:47 therein lies the snare for PhD biologists, they spend so much time ensconced in the world they can study on a microscope slide that they often lose sight of the grand scheme Sight "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:1-3 THE GIFT OF FAITH - THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT - THE WONDER OF THE BIBLE Through Eyes Of Faith We See The Literal Beginning Of Our Great Grandfather Adam And Grandmother Eve "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7 And The Beginnings Of Death On Planet Earth "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." Genesis 3:6-7 And The Hope Of The Ages "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:" Job 19:25 Our Salvation "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8 The LORD Jesus Christ "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10 Why Would One Trade The Book Of Wonder For The Fable Of Evolution Beats Me. It Is Not Observable, Testable, Repeatable Therefore Evolution Is Anti-Science. It Is A Tale Used To Replace The Truth Of Jesus Christ The Creator And The Words Of The Bible Therefore Evolution Is Anti-Truth. Whatever You May Think Of Beginnings, See Jesus And Be Blessed Beloved The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 5, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Science is a product of man, just like language, literature (excluding the Bible), algebra, engineering and so on. Actually, I am going to have to challenge this claim. How is language a product of man? Did man invent language? Algebra? Think on this - is math an invention or a discovery? Likewise, are the "laws of physics" something man invented, or are they our way of understanding what is already in operation? You are interjecting philosophy into science which is essentially like trying to use calculus to diagram a sentence. We are talking about two completely distinct fields. But forrest - is it truth to take God out of His creation? As a Christian, how can you justify studying God's creation as if it is without God? Will you truly stand with atheists and say that our bodies are products of evolution and not designs of God? As a Christian, do you consider Psalm 139:13, 14 to be a fairytale (For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made)? Would you tell your God to His face - You don't belong in my science? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lekcit Posted October 5, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/18/1976 Share Posted October 5, 2007 damo, I never ignored your point. You said that Darwin said he was wrong. I've showed you where he never said he was wrong. Now clearly he was wrong but the fact is he never admitted it. And as I've said now for the third time, what difference does it make? As KeilanS stated, "Also, it really doesn't matter if Darwin recanted or not. It doesn't have the slightest effect on the validity of evolution. " That is the exact point I am making as well. I changes nothing if Darwin said he was wrong or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damo1 Posted October 6, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,822 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/16/1967 Share Posted October 6, 2007 damo, I never ignored your point. You said that Darwin said he was wrong. I've showed you where he never said he was wrong. Now clearly he was wrong but the fact is he never admitted it. And as I've said now for the third time, what difference does it make? As KeilanS stated, "Also, it really doesn't matter if Darwin recanted or not. It doesn't have the slightest effect on the validity of evolution. " That is the exact point I am making as well. I changes nothing if Darwin said he was wrong or not. from damo1 what did i say to you do not waste my time if you can not handle what is in his score card take it up with his publishers and go on line and ask for his score card to be taken off that web page as the score card is there for every one to read sine you love darwin so much and state you are a christian i can see what god is going to say to you i told you i am not a darwin fan never have been never will be why is it that most stick up for this guy and find what god says in the bible flawed and why is it most cant accept what is stated in the bible as truth you have to come on this offensive and try to argu a point and its as if darwin is your god and you wil believe what this man says but when you read the bible you mock it you come against any decent christian and you test to see how far you can push the person bravo for you for trying again to tell me that i was wrong how proud you must be to do this wel how about you confront darwins publishers and the person who set this web sight and ask theem to take darwins score card off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 7, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 7, 2007 I found another commentary on the film: Evolution Exposed on the Big Screen The comment at the end: The film is marketed as being unique in scope. "The incredible thing about "Expelled" is that we don't resort to manipulating our interviews for the purpose of achieving the 'shock effect,' something that has become common in documentary films these days," Premise Media's co-founder Walt Ruloff said, who is also the documentary's co-executive producer. "People will be stunned to actually find out what elitist scientists proclaim, which is that a large majority of Americans are simpletons who believe in a fairy tale," he added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lekcit Posted October 9, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/18/1976 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Someone please show me where I ever claim to be a Darwin fan or that I've made him my "god" as is claimed. I am against Darwin and his teaching. I do not agree with Darwin's claims. With that said, it was claimed by another poster here that Darwin eventually recanted, or said his position was wrong before he died. This point has been proven false. He never did this. Further, what difference does it make? Does it make evolution weaker and creation stronger? Or vice versa? No. It does nothing for either side. It doesn't matter. I've said it now four times and provided evidence to support the position. Have a great day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damo1 Posted October 9, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,822 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/16/1967 Share Posted October 9, 2007 Someone please show me where I ever claim to be a Darwin fan or that I've made him my "god" as is claimed. I am against Darwin and his teaching. I do not agree with Darwin's claims. With that said, it was claimed by another poster here that Darwin eventually recanted, or said his position was wrong before he died. This point has been proven false. He never did this. Further, what difference does it make? Does it make evolution weaker and creation stronger? Or vice versa? No. It does nothing for either side. It doesn't matter. I've said it now four times and provided evidence to support the position. Have a great day. from damo1 you stated in this post you dont beleive in darwin thats good leave it to that and stop wasting my time well thats god if you do not beleive in his teaching if you want to say something you pm and not put it out on cyber space as its a lot diffrent when you are having a face to face contac cyber space you can say what you want as you know you will not see that person face to face oh i got your personal message as a brother in the lord i forgive you but please do not push this to were space is wasted be a man and confront me as i said pm me i said by what it is said for every one to log on his sight and its in plain print on his score card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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