A new take on an old argument

[EricH]

Lately I have been thinking about the whole eternal security thing and something hit me; can you really have eternal security if you cannot lose your salvation? Those who argue that we have eternal security say that once you are saved you are always saved. Opponents of this idea always bring up some example of someone who "becomes" a Christian and then "falls away." Those who are in favor of the preservation of the saints reply, "that person was never truly saved." And, it is with this answer I have decided that if you cannot loose your salvation you cannot be secure in your eternal state (you can not have eternal security). Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved." If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am. However, If I can loose my salvation, I can be assured that I am saved right now, if I die right now I can be assured that I am going to heaven because I have not turned my back on God. If I can loose my salvation I can have eternal security. I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation.

What are your thoughts?

This text was coppied from God Worshippers

Cajunboy notes::::There is one sin that is "unforgivable;" blasphemy of God's Holy Spirit! That would also apply to what most think of "Once saved, always saved.! One can turn from God again and forever in their lives and that too would be unforgivable in God's eyes. And it would be doubly sinful if the same person would be responsible for turning others away from God, as in some of the "cult" groups/organizations..

Only if blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is commitable by a genuine believer. Perseverance of the Saints would say it is not

[Carol R]

Hi,

I may be missing the point here so please bear with me ok.

I believe I have eternal security as long as I follow the Lord each and every day of my life. Put Him first etc etc.

I was saved the day I asked the Lord into my life acknowledging who He is.

I also believe I can walk away at any time from God. This doesn't mean I was never saved but that I have rejected the gift God gave me.

I also believe that if you walk away and fall into sin you will not get into heaven after rejecting God.

We all sin each day, possibly, but we also repent and pray about these things and bring God into the equation its when you stop doing all these things and God is not first in your life that things will start to change in your heart.

Or have I missed the plot completely.

[EricH]

Hi,

I may be missing the point here so please bear with me ok.

I believe I have eternal security as long as I follow the Lord each and every day of my life. Put Him first etc etc.

I was saved the day I asked the Lord into my life acknowledging who He is.

I also believe I can walk away at any time from God. This doesn't mean I was never saved but that I have rejected the gift God gave me.

I also believe that if you walk away and fall into sin you will not get into heaven after rejecting God.

We all sin each day, possibly, but we also repent and pray about these things and bring God into the equation its when you stop doing all these things and God is not first in your life that things will start to change in your heart.

Or have I missed the plot completely.

Here is the crux. Your postion is described loosely as the Arminean position. It basically holds that we can loose our salvation. The Calvinist position states that we cannot loose our salvation once we receive it truly. Both would agree that if a person is not persistent in their faith, one should question their salvation to make sure it is valid. Where they differ is if salvation was real in the first place. Your position would say they were but lost it, the other that they never had it

[CaritateDei]

Hi,

I may be missing the point here so please bear with me ok.

I believe I have eternal security as long as I follow the Lord each and every day of my life. Put Him first etc etc.

I was saved the day I asked the Lord into my life acknowledging who He is.

I also believe I can walk away at any time from God. This doesn't mean I was never saved but that I have rejected the gift God gave me.

I also believe that if you walk away and fall into sin you will not get into heaven after rejecting God.

We all sin each day, possibly, but we also repent and pray about these things and bring God into the equation its when you stop doing all these things and God is not first in your life that things will start to change in your heart.

Or have I missed the plot completely.

Here is the crux. Your postion is described loosely as the Arminean position. It basically holds that we can loose our salvation. The Calvinist position states that we cannot loose our salvation once we receive it truly. Both would agree that if a person is not persistent in their faith, one should question their salvation to make sure it is valid. Where they differ is if salvation was real in the first place. Your position would say they were but lost it, the other that they never had it

Calvinist, eh? He had devotion to Mary!

Assurance of salvation based on faith alone...hmmm...where is that in the Bible? I've never seen anywhere that the Bible says we are justified by faith alone. I have always heard it put other ways, along with provisions to maintain otherwise we may be cut off.

False security is an extremely dangerous game to play.

[ted]

Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved."

This is not wholly accurate. It is not true that someone who falls away is put in the category of never having been saved.

Only those who demonstrate that while professing Christ, they continue to live in unrepentatly are seen as not having a genuine profession of faith in Christ. If a person professes Christ, but lives in sexual immorality, and rebuffs any correction and proves him/herself to be irretrievably consumed in sin, then it is assumed that such a person never truly surrendered to the Lord. The litmus test of a true Christian is a sincere desire to serve the Lord. Absent any demonstration of that, we have no reason to believe such a person was ever saved.

There are many people who come to church on Sunday to get forgiven, fully intending to continue in sin. The Bible says in Proverbs 26 that the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. It is an abomination because a wicked person does not offer it in true repentance, but only as a means of salving their conscience. There is no provision in Scripture for such a person.

People fall away for a variety of reasons, and we cannot just lump them altogether. Some people go through seasons of discouragement and anger/rebellion, but it done out of pain and we need to be patient and extend mercy and be the willing vessels that God can use to woo them back to Himself.

God's grace is not for the righteous, for the person who lives perfectly all the time. Grace is for the fallen, for the ones who stumble in a sincere desire to serve the Lord. Grace is there for us when we fall to say, "I forgive you; let me pick you up and help you." We completely underestimate the patience and mercy of God.

Nothing we do takes God by surprise. He knew when He saved us, just where and how we would sin. He knew when He saved us that we would screw up and let Him down and He saved us anyway.

God is not like us. He does not throw us away when we mess up. He is a loving Father. No loving parent abandons their child when their child disappoints them. In fact, it makes them love their child more, not less.

If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am.

Fortunately, the Bible provides us with a "know-so" salvation. How do I know I am saved? I don't have to rely on what I do or don't do to tell me I am saved. I can go to the Word of God:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

(John 5:24)

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

(1 John 5:11-13)

The above-referenced verses of Scripture tell me that I can know today, right now that I am saved. It is not based upon how I feel, or what I have done or not done. I have the Son of God in my heart, and I know that I am going to heaven and that is not based on the doctrine of eternal security, but based upon the words of Scripture. I have Jesus' promise that I have already passed from death to eternal life.

I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation.

Salvation is not about me trying to actively remain in Christ. That makes salvation my doing, and not God's. If I am saved because I lived the right kind of life to ensure that I remain in Christ, salvation is then no longer a gift, but a reward. It is no longer based upon the work of the cross, but finds its ultimate fulfillment in me. That is not the gospel.

The second glaring problem with the idea that I must seek to remain in Christ in order to be saved, is that I would never know if I have done enough to accomplish that. I would never know to my dying day if every sin was confessed, if every good deed was done perfectly enough to earn God's approval. God has an absolute standard of perfection, which possesses no margin for error. There are no varying degrees of "good enough." It is not enough to do a good deed, but it has be done perfectly, and no one can truly say that all of their deeds are good enough on that basis. When have you done enough, and how do you know that every deed was done to God's immovable, absolute standard of perfection?

Those who try to earn their salvation by their deeds are the ones without assurance.

Amen and amen!

Absolutely beautiful!

t.

[Vickilynn]

I would like to add something to this topic which I had not included. I do not believe that someone can "loose" their salvation. If I could loose it, I could also hold on to it. In this case it would based on my merit not on that of God. I do not believe that anyone will ever wake up and realize "I have lost my salvation." However, I do think that someone can renounce their salvation. An unsaved person can choose to reject the salvation offered by God, so why would God force someone who has tasted of the heavenly gift (Heb 6:4) to remain in relationship with him if that is not their desire? Therefore, I would claim that one cannot loose their salvation but they can renounce it. I would also claim that the only way I can truly have assurance of salvation is if I can renounce it. That being said, I am in no way saying that I can attain salvation by my merit. I hope that this clarifies somethings.

Shalom,

Exactly. We cannot "lose" our salvation, nor can it be taken from us. BUT, since we have the choice to accept the salvation in the first place, we also have the choice to renounce it. If we do, then we are no longer abiding in Yeshua and we are not of the household of "faith" and as such are broken off the tree. (Romans 11).

[Vickilynn]

Hi,

I may be missing the point here so please bear with me ok.

I believe I have eternal security as long as I follow the Lord each and every day of my life. Put Him first etc etc.

I was saved the day I asked the Lord into my life acknowledging who He is.

I also believe I can walk away at any time from God. This doesn't mean I was never saved but that I have rejected the gift God gave me.

I also believe that if you walk away and fall into sin you will not get into heaven after rejecting God.

We all sin each day, possibly, but we also repent and pray about these things and bring God into the equation its when you stop doing all these things and God is not first in your life that things will start to change in your heart.

Or have I missed the plot completely.

Shalom Carol,

Exactly. Amen and amen! This is what I believe the Scripture teaches.

[Khristeeanos]

ex,

Please respond to this post.

There seem to be two main categories within the OSAS doctrine.

1. One is saved no matter what behavior they have.

2. If falls away, it proves that they were never saved in the first place.

Is this a correct assessment?

If not, please correct me.

If so, allow me to further explain my original post.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hi,

I may be missing the point here so please bear with me ok.

I believe I have eternal security as long as I follow the Lord each and every day of my life. Put Him first etc etc.

Then, ultimately, your salvation, in your opinion depends on you. Salvation, as you present it here, becomes a reward you deserve and not the free gift of God's grace.

We all sin each day, possibly, but we also repent and pray about these things and bring God into the equation its when you stop doing all these things and God is not first in your life that things will start to change in your heart.

That is not how it works. Let me explain.

God's standard is absolute perfection beyond any taint of sin. If salvation is based upon following the Lord and living right, then it has to be by God's standard of perfection, which allows for no margin of error. If salvation is conduct-based, then one sin, one transgression blows it completely and folks would have to be resaved EACH time they sin. This problem is further compounded by the fact that God's standard of perfection is absolute which means it is not enough to simply avoid sinful acts and only perform righteous deeds. It is not enough to do what is right, but you must also peform it with sinless perfection. This is impossible since you have a sin nature, which will not be eradicated this side of the grave or the second coming which ever comes first.

[Carol R]

Oh another wee point, isn't it Gods doctrine not anyone elses!!!!!!!