Eschatology

[Guest LCPGUY]

I agree with you DadE, the first four of the events you mention have already occurred and now we look forward to the final and exciting fulfillment of the fifth, but it seems that some want to be secretly raptured away before it happens.

Well, if you don't, so be it. If you look forward to the horror that is coming, fine with me.

As for me, I place my hope in the scriptures and the clear indication of the "secret" rapture. I ain't no glutton for punishment. :x:

Tell me guys, are y'all trying to tell me in a semi-polite way that I'm not saved because I think your view on the last days is totally wrong?

Curious :c:

Your Brother, In Love

John :hug:

[Guest LCPGUY]

Sorry but your statement from the begining shows me that you have done practically no research in the matter , and you atitude tells me you dont want to know the truth.... I find it to be lazy....

Hey! Glad you feel you know me so well, and what I have and haven't done.

I just knew the personal assaults were just around the corner.

But then, I have always found that to be typical of the post-trib folks. I'm not surprised. I'm not offended.

I pray that you, my brothers in Christ, will one day open your minds and accept the truth. But you know what, it doesn't matter 'cause you're just every bit as saved as I am. And when the Lord calls us home BEFORE the tribulation, I'll, with a smile on me face, explain it all to you.

What a cantankerous bunch you are! But I still love yuh, all... :il:

John :hug: :hug: :hug:

[eric]

Hey Brother John, there's no way that I am implying that you sre not saved, never. No more than I would say that about any follower of the pre-trib doctrine. Pre, mid or post trib has nothing to do with a person's salvation. I would never want to lose the love of any brother because of a difference of interpretation of a passage of scripture I just cant see how the a/c is going to war against the saints if the saints aint going to be there to war against. To me a person is a saint or is not a saint. there's no such thing as being half saved. So if one is not a saint, he doesn't have to fear the a/c . He only has to experience the wrath of God which comes after the resurrection, which comes immediately after the tribulation according Matt.24:29.

You are still a beloved bro, John.

eric.

[Guest LCPGUY]

Hey Brother John, there's no way that I am implying that you sre not saved, never. No more than I would say that about any follower of the pre-trib doctrine. Pre, mid or post trib has nothing to do with a person's salvation. I would never want to lose the love of any brother because of a difference of interpretation of a passage of scripture I just cant see how the a/c is going to war against the saints if the saints aint going to be there to war against. To me a person is a saint or is not a saint. there's no such thing as being half saved. So if one is not a saint, he doesn't have to fear the a/c . He only has to experience the wrath of God which comes after the resurrection, which comes immediately after the tribulation according Matt.24:29.

You are still a beloved bro, John.

eric.

Eric, thank you blessed brother for your reply. I agree with you in that we all who are "In Christ" are saved. This whole rapture issue is secondary to the salvation of Christ. It is nothing to get mad about or divide over. We all have our own interpretations. Therefore, it seems to me that scripture, in this area, leaves a lot open for individual interpretation. But I still know I'm right.. :x:

Anyway, Thanx Eric my brother.

Now, will Dad step to the plate and clarify his position, his concerns?

And Dad, I want to know SPECIFICALLY if you believe pre-tribbers are saved, or not saved. That's all that matters to me.

In His Love,

John :hug:

[JesusisGod2]

I agree with you DadE, the first four of the events you mention have already occurred and now we look forward to the final and exciting fulfillment of the fifth, but it seems that some want to be secretly raptured away before it happens.

Well, if you don't, so be it. If you look forward to the horror that is coming, fine with me.

Hi Icpguy,

I dont think anyone is really looking forward to the times that are ahead of us. But this does not and will not prevent them from happening.

Jesus Himself said "when you see these things come to pass" Luke 21:31 He did not say to them when they asked Him, dont worry about it if you are one of His, because you wont be here, on the contrary.

As for me, I place my hope in the scriptures

I believe everyone here does the same with our main hope and focus on the Lord Jesus.

and the clear indication of the "secret" rapture.

What is a secret rapture (no offence intended)

I ain't no glutton for punishment.  :x:

Neither am I brother, and I believe that God will provide protection during these times of trouble as a testimony of Himself to the world.

Tell me guys, are y'all trying to tell me in a semi-polite way that I'm not saved because I think your view on the last days is totally wrong?

Curious  :c:

Your Brother, In Love

John  :hug:

I dont think that anyone is unsaved because of their belief in the pre-trib rapture, This is a teaching that seems to be the most popular. (By the way what turned you from a post-trib to a pre-trib believer?) and you are right what we believe as far the timing of the rapture will not affect our salvation if we are indeed saved.

But this is a very valuable witnessing tool to those who are not saved. So this is where the tribulation and the rapture studies become a very valuable witnessing tool. People are very interested in endtime events, and many including myself, turn to God when they hear and understand the truth of the events that are to come.

In Jesus

Kevin

[Guest LCPGUY]

Hi there kevin

(By the way what turned you from a post-trib to a pre-trib believer?)

Well, for just a starter, I was always confused about Christ's return being described in two different ways.

1) Secret, quick, no man knows the day or the hour (Rapture)

2) Predictable (2nd coming, physically, all will see Him)

Since item 2 is in fact predictable, i.e., 1260 days or 42 months after the abomination of desolation, it seemed two different events were being spoken of. Then I read that verse in my sig below. That's what got me started doubting the post-trib theory. Also, Luke 21:28 puzzled me. If we were to go through the tribulation it didn't make sense for Jesus to say "When you see these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Heck, we not only have seen them begin, but we'd have been through the whole shebang!

Also, I could not figure out who would inhabit the millennial kingdom if all the believers were raptured and the unbelievers were cast into fire.

I then started studying more and visiting both post and pre-tib web-sites. I prayed fervently about this matter and asked for the Lord's guidance. I read all the post-trib dialog on all the above and it just didn't make sense to me. They had to make way too many things allegorical or symbolic to make their arguments appear valid. The pre-trib answers seem to take scripture in a more literal sense. The pre-trib arguments seemed to be the best fit with scripture. The icing on the cake was when I heard my hero or hero's, J. Vernon McGee give a detailed account of why he was an unshakeable pre-tribber. So here I am, an avid pre-tribber.

In His Love,

John

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings lcpguy,

I'm glad to see you finally voice your misunderstanding of the post-trib rapture.

Well, for just a starter, I was always confused about Christ's return being described in two different ways.

1) Secret, quick, no man knows the day or the hour (Rapture)

2) Predictable (2nd coming, physically, all will see Him)

Since item 2 is in fact predictable, i.e., 1260 days or 42 months after the abomination of desolation, it seemed two different events were being spoken of. Then I read that verse in my sig below. That's what got me started doubting the post-trib theory. Also, Luke 21:28 puzzled me. If we were to go through the tribulation it didn't make sense for Jesus to say "When you see these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Heck, we not only have seen them begin, but we'd have been through the whole shebang!

Well, I am pre-mill, post-trib, prewrath. It is comonly accepted to those who believe in a pre-mill resurrection/rapture that the countdown for the last days before Christ comes begins with the manifestation of the "man of sin".

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

From there it is calculated by many that this would be the onset of the 7 years of Daniel's tribulation. But look at the 2 verses prior to this:

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Do you see that the Lord's 2nd coming and the "gathering together with Him" DOES NOT occur BEFORE the manifestation of the "man of sin"? So what does that mean according to the pre-trib view? Your answer is going to be that 7 years to the day and hour from the manifestation of the man of sin, the Lord will come. Of course that is dependent upon the rapture occuring at the same moment as the manifestation of the man of sin. So your interpretation of not knowing the day and hour is not supportable by scripture. Now this is contingent upon a "secret rapture", but when you examine the CONTEXT, you find that it is NOT until the Lord comes are "we gathered together with Him", which as you can see does NOT take place for another ______ (blank) number of years.

So the pre-tribber has the same problem as the post-tribber. Trying to understand the verse that says "we shall not know the day or the hour". Well, the day or the hour is very precise. If it was said we shall not know just the "day", then we might assume the resurrection/rapture would occur in "some" unknown age. But when combined with "the hour", it becomes very precise. If you have read enough scripture, then you will realize that God has ALWAYS revealed the "season" to His people. Many, including myself, believe that we are IN that last SEASON because of this verse:

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So from the time the generation that sees the "fig tree" sprouting leaves, we can KNOW for certain that it is the SEASON that will see its ending with the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you know that "during that season, the "great tribulation" wil occur?" Again, the Lord is coming at the END of the "great tribulation", and which is also mentioned here:

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Those in white robes are "multitudes beyond count from every nation, tribe and tongue". Is the Lord going to come and leave those multitudes behind? I really think not.

The answer to the problem "no man shall know the day or the hour", is actually pretty simple to answer. The "man of sin" that is to arise, according to Daniel will arise very subtly and with deception. Many think he is alive today - somewhere, already devising his plans to arise to power. But WHEN he takes power is completely UNKNOWN. Even if he were to be manifested or brought to our attention today, we would probably not know THIS was the Man of Sin spoken of. The determining date of his rising to power will only be determined with any certainty ONCE THE LORD COMES. This man will be a master of deception. He will arise "out of the church". He will be recognized by all nations. He will do miraculous signs that will draw the attention of the whole world. He will lead the church into complete apostacy.

But the important part here for you is that no one will know the day or the hour of the man of sin's manifestation, thus we CANNOT know the day or the hour of the Lord's 2nd coming.

Also, I could not figure out who would inhabit the millennial kingdom if all the believers were raptured and the unbelievers were cast into fire.

The Lake of Fire does not occur till AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ, so I can see you are confused already.

After the resurrection/rapture will God's wrath be poured out upon the whole world. The structure of "Mystery Babylon" will be completely destroyed. Mankind as a whole, will not be completely destroyed. There will remain many in all the lands of the world that are not destroyed during this terrible hour of God's destruction. The inhabitants of the world during the Lord's 1,000 year reign, will be the "changed" Christians who will reign with Him, and of course all the rest of mankind that were not destroyed during the Wrath of God upon the wicked.

I then started studying more and visiting both post and pre-tib web-sites. I prayed fervently about this matter and asked for the Lord's guidance.  I read all the post-trib dialog on all the above and it just didn't make sense to me. They had to make way too many things allegorical or symbolic to make their arguments appear valid. The pre-trib answers seem to take scripture in a more literal sense. The pre-trib arguments seemed to be the best fit with scripture. The icing on the cake was when I heard my hero or hero's, J. Vernon McGee give a detailed account of why he was an unshakeable  pre-tribber. So here I am, an avid pre-tribber.

I have listened to Dr. McGee for many years and am fully aware of his pre-trib views, but unfortunately he is sadly in error. I knew that you were only a FOLLOWER of MAN, and I find that even sadder. You have looked at the verses which man has given to you and accepted them as gospel. What you really need to do is get a hold of God PERSONALLY and study His Word DILIGENTLY, and you too will learn the error of the pre-trib rapture view.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest LCPGUY]

Dad, thank you for your lengthy response. I agreed with "some" of your points and was going to respond to them in detail.

But after reading your last paragraph and its personal attack, I simply say "not worthy of comment". I will no longer answer posts, questions, etc. from you or anyone else that takes this mean-spirited "I know it all" approach.

Lastly, my views have not changed one bit. You offered nothing I haven't seen dozens of times before and seen shot down by a literal interpretation of scripture.

Good night.

In His Love,

John

[Dad Ernie]

Dad, thank you for your lengthy response. I agreed with "some" of your points and was going to respond to them in detail.

But after reading your last paragraph and its personal attack, I simply say "not worthy of comment". I will no longer answer posts, questions, etc. from you or anyone else that takes this mean-spirited "I know it all" approach.

Lastly, my views have not changed one bit. You offered nothing I haven't seen dozens of times before and seen shot down by a literal interpretation of scripture.

Greetings lcpguy,

I once believed in the pre-trib doctrine. I have known others as well that have been deluded by the pre-trib doctrine, but even as I, as soon as anyone who gets serious with God and truly wants to understand, they begin to see the fallacy of that horrible doctrine. I am personally convinced it is a lie of Satan meant to destroy Christians or at least to destroy their good works as they stand before the Bema Seat Judgment. It grieves me dearly to see such great men, greatly used of God, i.e. Dr. McGee, Chuck Swindoll, et al., so anointed in their ministry in so many other areas and yet have no clue as to end time events. I have only touched on a very small portion of WHY the pre-trib doctrine is in error. I would like very much to go step by step with you through many of the errors that are inherent in that doctrine. For example:

Our "definitions" of the terminology used in prophetic scripture is very important. It is necessary to "interpret the spiritual WITH the spiritual", meaning that "scripture interprets scripture". A couple terms that are basic to the understanding of the end days are the words: "tribulation" and "God's wrath".

A simple definition of "tribulation" might be the suffering and persecution which comes upon all men, which takes place over a period of time, which MAY result in death, but not always so and originates within THIS creation.

A simple definition of "God's wrath" IS that it is ALWAYS FATAL, and takes place in a moment, perhaps "within the hour". It is never prolonged and it comes directly from God in Heaven.

For examples of "tribulation" we can look to Jesus and the disciples, even Stephen in the Book of Acts. Jesus was hunted down by the Sanhedrin shortly after He began His ministry. It lasted for 3 1/2 years and ended in His death. He tells us that if He was persecuted in this world, so shall we be.

For examples of "God's wrath", we can see many in the scriptures, i.e.:

The Noahic Flood

Sodom & Gomorrah

Korah's Rebellion

Annanias & Sapphira in Acts 5

AND one situation where we can see both tribulation AND wrath in the same story and that is when Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt.

During their last days in Egypt, the Hebrews were divinely protected during all the tribulation about them as the plagues hit Egypt.

God's wrath finally came upon the Egyptians when they tried to pursue the Hebrews across the Red Sea.

I draw your attention to God's wrath, because it is very clearly shown in the Book of Revelation when God vents His wrath against Mystery Babylon. It takes place "IN ONE HOUR", and it is completely FATAL. Christians shall not be on this earth for that.

But for all the "earthly judgments" and "seals" or "bowls", these are ALL parts of "tribulation" and Jesus makes it clear in Matthew 24, as long as we are in the world, we shall suffer "tribulation" EVEN THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Now that is a sample, if you wish to discuss any of the other examples of the delusion of the pre-trib doctrine, please tell me.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[salt and light]

Will somebody please give just one verse,or all the verses that says that the Lord can come at any time,or that the "catching away" of the saints can happen at any time?