Trinity or Oneness?

[AnotherTraveler]

Maybe I missed it but I don't think you answered my question. You are defending your position, but you didn't answer my question. So here it is again.

#1:Do you think the Apostles new the answer to this question?

And then,#2: Something as important as this, do you think Paul would have taught Timothy the correct understanding?

There are two parts to the question and you may have a different answer to each, But just a simple yes or no will help me understand where you are coming from.

K.D.

#1 No.

#2 No.

[Kansasdad]

Ok let me understand this. You are saying that the Apostles did not understand whether your understanding of scripture is correct or if the "Trinity" understanding is correct. The very people who wrote the new testament didn't know what scripture was telling us, but you, 2000 years later, have a better understanding than the Apostles themselves?

K.D.

[AnotherTraveler]

Ok let me understand this. You are saying that the Apostles did not understand whether your understanding of scripture is correct or if the "Trinity" understanding is correct. The very people who wrote the new testament didn't know what scripture was telling us, but you, 2000 years later, have a better understanding than the Apostles themselves?

K.D.

Nope.

I only agree with what the scriptures say concerning this.

1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

And further, I invert your question back to you. This is what the very people that wrote the scriptures wrote (this guy was Paul), so how is it that YOU, or any others now claim to have somehow so comprehended this great mystery, that you or they can now express it in a paragraph or two? The Apostle Paul did not claim to understand this great mystery (nor did any of the Apostles), and we were left to just believe this and many other great mysteries without explanation. This mystery above all mysteries is not granted to the oneness nor the trinity camps, and indeed it remains yet a great mystery.

Now, if you would like to declare the verses of scripture that declare that we are to define God, declare away. Or the verses that declare that we are to make doctrine from sources outside the bible, declare away, however, the bible does not allow for the manufacture of doctrines nor private intrepretations.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:20 (KJV),

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim 3:16-17 (KJV)

This is simple really, if it isn't scripture, it is not useful for doctrine. If it is private interpretation, even if it was Timothy himself that received these letters from Paul, still I would not accept Timothy's defination of the nature of the godhead without verifying scriptures, and God did not choose to explain this great mystery in the scriptures.

I will make my stand on what the bible says. Period.

[Kansasdad]

We do know that people who were taught by the Apostles themselves did teach on this issue. I am not talking about generations later but by men who walked and talked with them.

Here is one example:

St. Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna (known as Izmir) in Asia Minor. He was one of the most revered fathers of the church. He talked to apostles, instructed by them, and was the disciple of St. John the Evangelist. He always taught what he had learned from the apostles. Thus, he was known as one of the few named the

[Kansasdad]

The Holy Spirit is a Person

Luke 12:12 - the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say. He (the Holy Spirit) teaches the faithful.

John 14:17 - the world neither sees Him or knows Him ("Him" is referring to the Holy Spirit). You know Him for He dwells with you.

John 14:26 - the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all I have said to you.

John 15:26 - the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to me. He = the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing.

John 16:7 - if I do not go, the Counselor will not come to you. But if I go, I (Jesus) will send Him to you.

John 16:7 - this verse also proves the filioque (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son). The Father isn

[Kansasdad]

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.

Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."

Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."

Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."

Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.

Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

[Kansasdad]

Nowhere in any of the apostles writings whether it be Paul,Peter,John or James can we find the trinity being taught nor did they have any reason to openly dispute it because in there day it was not being taught by them nor any one else.

The teaching of the trinity sprung up after the apostles were long gone.

I see you didn't read my post. I showed you where the Trinity was indeed being taught while John the Apostle was still alive.

God Bless,

K.D.

[Kansasdad]

John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.

Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."

Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."

Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."

Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6.

Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

Yep that all proves oneness,are you on my side?

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.

I have shown with no doubt that Jesus is God and yet Jesus calls God Abba. Why would God call himself Abba.

Now what I have posted shows from scripture the Trinity. I have also posted the teachings from people who heard the words from the Apostles themselves and they confirm that the scriptures are teaching the Triune God.

God Bless,

K.D.

[AnotherTraveler]

We do know that people who were taught by the Apostles themselves did teach on this issue. I am not talking about generations later but by men who walked and talked with them.

Here is one example:

St. Polycarp was the Bishop of Smyrna (known as Izmir) in Asia Minor. He was one of the most revered fathers of the church. He talked to apostles, instructed by them, and was the disciple of St. John the Evangelist. He always taught what he had learned from the apostles. Thus, he was known as one of the few named the “Apostolic Fathers.”

This is what he wrote on the subject:

"[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen." Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).

Here is another:

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).

Why would any reasonable person consider their own personal interpretation of scripture 2000 years later so much better than those that actually heard the words from the Apostles mouth.

God Bless,

K.D.

Sorry, but I must have missed the words trinity, triune, coequal, and the other stuff. How exactly does this in any way say trinity?

[damo1]

damo1

to owings as eagles

no paul did not teach on oneness and paul also belived in true son ship which you owings as eagles said in one of your posts you do not belive in true son ship

i have been going over this in the bible and later wil come back to prove you are wrong wear is your facts by saying paul taught one ness when i see paul was very aware and he taught timothy the correct way

please point me to gods word wear it says paul belived in one nees and if you cant give me the scripture verses that line up with gods word i wil put your stance to this aside how can any one not belve in true son ship ?

also i noticed no one botherd to look at ephesians 3 and the verses i gave on this mystery explained by paul him self

i belive in the true son ship this was the question asked to you and you said no you do not belive in true son ship

when it says we are all priests all heirs co in one with the father the son and the holy spirit

how can paul preach on one ness when i do not see this no wear in the bible paul belived in using the gifts of the holy spirit he uderstood what baptisem was acts 19 1 to 7 he even new what johns baptisem was which was a repenatance baptisem and even john new about jesus

mattew 3 verses 11 = 16 paul understood it was jesus father that spoke from heaven saying i am well pleased and even john the apostle heard this paul belives in the laying of on hands

their are plenty of christians that do not belive in the gifts of the spirit or the laying of on hands or even speaking in tounges yet paul belived in this so did timothy

paul rejected false teaching he confronted false apostles

wear are you getting al this i had a talk with one of my leaders and he said no so point this out other wise keep your views to your self

from damo