Absent from the body...

[Christian]

"Those who want to go" and the fixed gulf. If the people were in an unconscious state, they could not "want" to go anywhere, they would be unaware of their surroundings and where they were, and there would be no need for the gulf. This implies that these people are physically active. The scripture also speaks to people being unable to cross over from either side, so people in both sides are obviously(?) active.

Again, from my previous statement, nothing is "obvious" here. It could be just as well "implied" that the "those who want to go" is merely an inference to the innate desire those in Paradise would have wanting to help those they know in torments if it were areality, or possible. Either way brother, I find nothing definitive in your position so again I'll just leave it at agreeing to disagree.

This is really intellectual suicide. The parable illustrates that soul sleep is simply not an accurate position. The rich man wuold not be talking to Abraham and Abraham would not be talking to him if soul sleep were an accurate theological position. It is not hard at all.

Then why does Lazurus say nothing himself?!?!

For clarity's sake, I am not advocating soul sleep in my query, I'm simply asking for more substance from proponents of those views that oppose it.

in Christ,

Christian

[Guest shiloh357]

Then why does Lazurus say nothing himself?!?!

That is entirely irrelevant. You still have the rich man and Abraham, both who are also dead, carrying on a conversation which pretty much puts the soul sleep theory to bed. The fact that you still have two dead people who are consicous of where they are, still experiencing emotion and are able to carry on a conversation, demonstrates the fallacy of sould sleep. Lazurus' silence does not introduce any problem for opposition to soul sleep.

The onus is on the proponents of soul sleep to demonstrate how Lazurus' silence would indicate a postive point for the soul sleep positin

[Christian]

Then why does Lazurus say nothing himself?!?!

That is entirely irrelevant. You still have the rich man and Abraham, both who are also dead, carrying on a conversation which pretty much puts the soul sleep theory to bed. The fact that you still have two dead people who are consicous of where they are, still experiencing emotion and are able to carry on a conversation, demonstrates the fallacy of sould sleep. Lazurus' silence does not introduce any problem for opposition to soul sleep.

The onus is on the proponents of soul sleep to demonstrate how Lazurus' silence would indicate a postive point for the soul sleep positin

OK, let us not fixate on the soul sleep position, but address something different then.

If you have read through this thread you will see the content regarding the "scriptural support", without conjecture or supposition on verses clearly indicating arrival in heaven upon death for those who have died in Christ. Without rehashing old posts content, can you add anything new to that discussion by providing any other scriptures that haven't been presented as of yet?

Blessings,

in His service

Christis

[Pilgrim7]

Brother Shiloh,

I've been anxiously awaiting your input:

It is not 'soul sleep', it is 'soul death', which Jesus referred to as sleep, for all will be resurrected from the 'first death', which is why Jesus also used the term of 'awaking the dead' or 'awaking from sleep'. The soul does not sleep in death, He has died, has no life, for the soul is the entire being. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Death is death, life is life.

When one dies all brain activity ceases, the brain, from which all thoughts and consciousness arise, does not leave the body, but dies, ceases to function, turns to dust again, thus the Scripture which says that the thoughts of the dead perish, cease, are no more. He awaits the resurrection of his entire being, body and mind. Thus upon resurrection, he awakes, becomes alive again, brain starts to function again.

Since God breathed into man the 'breath of life', and he became a 'living soul', when the 'breath of life' goes back to God, He becomes a 'dead soul'. This is why the need of resurrection of the 'dead soul', to bring him back to life, back to being a 'living soul'.

This is what the Scriptures teach:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is a very clear statement of truth. You see Scripture teaches that man 'became a living soul', not that he has an 'immortal soul' which roams around the cosmos when he dies. This has been the teaching of all Pagan Religions since Ancient Babylon and is currently the main teaching of 'New Age' religion. This belief is what causes them to seek to consult with the dead. In doing so they don't communicate with departed souls, but the Devil himself. Thus we have proof that it is a 'Pagan concept'.

When God formed man, he was still a dead soul, I guess you could say he was sleeping, but he was dead. He had all the components of man, body and mind, but lacked life, the breath of life. When He was given the breath of life, His body and mind came alive, thus the 'dead soul' became a 'living soul'.

In Luke, Jesus is teaching in parables. It never says that They went immediately to heaven or hell, at best it just tells of a time when this would occur, or because it is a parable, just is teaching a point, that there was torment and there was a place of safety. The main point of the parable is that though one rose from the dead, they would not believe.

All Scripture must harmonize. The above clear statement, coupled with others I have posted must harmonize with this parable told by Jesus. Thus Scripture cannot be made to contradict Scripture. The clearest Scriptures help interpret those which are less clear, such as parables.

God bless,

Dennis

[Massorite]

Brother Shiloh,

I've been anxiously awaiting your input:

It is not 'soul sleep', it is 'soul death', which Jesus referred to as sleep, for all will be resurrected from the 'first death', which is why Jesus also used the term of 'awaking the dead' or 'awaking from sleep'. The soul does not sleep in death, He has died, has no life, for the soul is the entire being. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. Death is death, life is life.

When one dies all brain activity ceases, the brain, from which all thoughts and consciousness arise, does not leave the body, but dies, ceases to function, turns to dust again, thus the Scripture which says that the thoughts of the dead perish, cease, are no more. He awaits the resurrection of his entire being, body and mind. Thus upon resurrection, he awakes, becomes alive again, brain starts to function again.

Since God breathed into man the 'breath of life', and he became a 'living soul', when the 'breath of life' goes back to God, He becomes a 'dead soul'. This is why the need of resurrection of the 'dead soul', to bring him back to life, back to being a 'living soul'.

This is what the Scriptures teach:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is a very clear statement of truth. You see Scripture teaches that man 'became a living soul', not that he has an 'immortal soul' which roams around the cosmos when he dies. This has been the teaching of all Pagan Religions since Ancient Babylon and is currently the main teaching of 'New Age' religion. This belief is what causes them to seek to consult with the dead. In doing so they don't communicate with departed souls, but the Devil himself. Thus we have proof that it is a 'Pagan concept'.

When God formed man, he was still a dead soul, I guess you could say he was sleeping, but he was dead. He had all the components of man, body and mind, but lacked life, the breath of life. When He was given the breath of life, His body and mind came alive, thus the 'dead soul' became a 'living soul'.

In Luke, Jesus is teaching in parables. It never says that They went immediately to heaven or hell, at best it just tells of a time when this would occur, or because it is a parable, just is teaching a point, that there was torment and there was a place of safety. The main point of the parable is that though one rose from the dead, they would not believe.

All Scripture must harmonize. The above clear statement, coupled with others I have posted must harmonize with this parable told by Jesus. Thus Scripture cannot be made to contradict Scripture. The clearest Scriptures help interpret those which are less clear, such as parables.

God bless,

Dennis

If when one dies all brain activity ceases then how is it that the rich man was able to know and fell that he was in torments. How is it that he was able to talk to Abraham and how was it that he was able to reason and ask Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his family about the torments? Wasn't the rich man dead also? And if he was dead what was it that was suffering the torments? As you said the flesh turns back to the dust which means that the brain was no longer. Right? What was the difference between the rich man and Lazarus?

If death is death then how can you account for the defeat of death by Jesus on the cross. In other words when we die in the flesh, death in the after life has already been conquered or swallowed up by Christ so Lazarus was not dead but in a state of peaceful sleep where he will rest until he is raised from the grave alive as he was already raised once.

If Lazarus was dead and couldn't feel or know anything then the rich man should have been in the same state because both of them were dead because death is death. But they weren't.

Again I say. If it is not written in the bible that Lazarus's soul was dead then it was not. If our soul is not an immortal soul then why does the bible teach us that we will be abiding with God and His son in the New Jerusalem on a new earth for ever and ever. And why does the bible tell us that who ever is not written in the Lambs Book of Life will suffer in eternal torments or fire for ever and ever in the lake of fire?

What you are teaching does not line up with scripture at all because scripture says the opposite of what you are saying.

How ever if you can show some scripture that tells us that Lazarus's soul is or was dead and will not exist for an eternity (or the rich man for that matter).

[Guest shiloh357]

Then why does Lazurus say nothing himself?!?!

That is entirely irrelevant. You still have the rich man and Abraham, both who are also dead, carrying on a conversation which pretty much puts the soul sleep theory to bed. The fact that you still have two dead people who are consicous of where they are, still experiencing emotion and are able to carry on a conversation, demonstrates the fallacy of sould sleep. Lazurus' silence does not introduce any problem for opposition to soul sleep.

The onus is on the proponents of soul sleep to demonstrate how Lazurus' silence would indicate a postive point for the soul sleep positin

OK, let us not fixate on the soul sleep position, but address something different then.

If you have read through this thread you will see the content regarding the "scriptural support", without conjecture or supposition on verses clearly indicating arrival in heaven upon death for those who have died in Christ. Without rehashing old posts content, can you add anything new to that discussion by providing any other scriptures that haven't been presented as of yet?

Well, it is simpl really. In Revelation 6, we find those who are martyred for Christ calling out to God and asking Him how long their blood will go unavenged. These are people who haved died and are standing in God's presence, not sleeping. That is evidence that shows that one goes to be in God's presence upon death, just as these martyrs did.

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

(2 Timothy 4:6-8)

Paul refers to the time of his departure and he expects to receive a crown of righteosouness on "that day." "That day" is the day of His departure according to him. Paul did not expect to sleep a while and then receive it later. He expected to die and at that time receive his reward, if we follow the clear meaning of the text.

[Neeva Candida]

Masorite had it right.

This is not the type of thing you would be discussing with an unsaved person if your intent was to bring them to a knowledge of their need for salvation.

~Neeva

[Christian]

Well, it is simpl really. In Revelation 6, we find those who are martyred for Christ calling out to God and asking Him how long their blood will go unavenged. These are people who haved died and are standing in God's presence, not sleeping. That is evidence that shows that one goes to be in God's presence upon death, just as these martyrs did.

I do not believe that we are able to completely understand some of the mysteries of God, given our limited, finite reasoning. There is nothing "simple" about the visions we are given in Revelation, nor is Revelation that fundamentally basic. Why are these individuals under the altar in Revelation 6:9 specifically identified as only the;

"... souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

here the word slain being...

G4969

σφάζω

sphazō

sfad'-zo

A primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specifically) to maim (violently): - kill, slay, wound.

If we are going on scripture supporting scripture than I can't say that I believe that this word would be used to apply to those who have peacefully "fallen asleep in Christ". How are we to know that this is not instead a group of specific individuals our Father Himself draws near to Himself because of the horrific deaths they may have suffered doing His work...we do not !!!

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

(2 Timothy 4:6-8)

Paul refers to the time of his departure and he expects to receive a crown of righteosouness on "that day." "That day" is the day of His departure according to him. Paul did not expect to sleep a while and then receive it later. He expected to die and at that time receive his reward, if we follow the clear meaning of the text.

You seem to be paraphrasing this scripture advantageously to make your point. Yes Paul is saying that the time of his departure is near, but the "day" he speaks of is clearly the day of Christ's return.

By examing this verse in the true light we see this.

2 Timothy 4:8

(8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day(His second coming): and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.

Thank you for your post shiloh,

Blessings to you,

in His service,

Christian

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jan 20 2008, 10:21 AM)

Well, it is simple really. In Revelation 6, we find those who are martyred for Christ calling out to God and asking Him how long their blood will go unavenged. These are people who haved died and are standing in God's presence, not sleeping. That is evidence that shows that one goes to be in God's presence upon death, just as these martyrs did.

I do not believe that we are able to completely understand some of the mysteries of God, given our limited, finite reasoning. There is nothing "simple" about the visions we are given in Revelation, nor is Revelation that fundamentally basic. Why are these individuals under the altar in Revelation 6:9 specifically identified as only the;

"... souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

here the word slain being...

Or maybe, you are just bent on making them harder to understand than they have to be. God has no interest in making His word confusing or hard to understand. It is considerably more difficult to hold us accountable for what is written, if what is written is beyond our finite minds to undersand in the first place.

The idea about the visions being "mysteries" does not hold true in every case, and does not hold true here. What is mysterious about those who are slain for their testimony of Christ? I am not saying it might not have a deeper meaning, but the deeper meaning does not cancel out the plain meaning of the text.

If we are going on scripture supporting scripture than I can't say that I believe that this word would be used to apply to those who have peacefully "fallen asleep in Christ".

Nonsense. Death is death. Whether you get shot in the dead, die of cancer, get thrown under a bus or die of old age, it is all the same. The way one dies would have nothing to do with whether or not a Christian goes to be with Jesus at death, or sleeps until a set time.

How are we to know that this is not instead a group of specific individuals our Father Himself draws near to Himself because of the horrific deaths they may have suffered doing His work...we do not !!!

To argue that the death of the martyr is more precious to God and is treated differently than those who died in Christ in other contexts or situations is not a biblical argument, and is a challenge to God's character as God does not play favorites, but allowing some into heaven and forcing others to wait since they did not die under a certain set of circumstances. Moreover, you are trying to make an argument from silence, which an entirely unreliable way to argue a point.

[Christian]

And what of this???

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

(2 Timothy 4:6-8)

Paul refers to the time of his departure and he expects to receive a crown of righteosouness on "that day." "That day" is the day of His departure according to him. Paul did not expect to sleep a while and then receive it later. He expected to die and at that time receive his reward, if we follow the clear meaning of the text.

You seem to be paraphrasing this scripture advantageously to make your point. Yes Paul is saying that the time of his departure is near, but the "day" he speaks of is clearly the day of Christ's return.

By examing this verse in the true light we see this.

2 Timothy 4:8

(8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day(His second coming): and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.

Thank you for your post shiloh,

Blessings to you,

in His service,

Christian