Christian Posted November 26, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted November 26, 2007 As the OP, I would like to chime in here also and say something. I'd like to thank you all for the civility you have shown in discussing this topic. It is such a pleasure when cooler heads prevail and we bring the scriptures, not our emotions to the table. Sometimes we need to humble ourselves and just walk away to catch our breath as brother Greg did, and/or hold our tongue to keep from spewing out angry words in frustration. It is more fruitful to pray that our "opponent" might see the truth if he is textually wrong, and just be silent, than to enter into a verbal jousting match. That being said... I would agree with brother Greg in the sense that this is an intellectual exercise which doesn't have any baring on our salvation or our responsibility to walk with the Lord in accordance with His word. We live for Him, we love for Him, and we wait for Him to return...dead or alive. Brother R, I would also agree with you that this is a weightier topic than may be comprehendible by new Christians, but it doesn't negate the responsibility to have a way to answer their question in a way that they can comprehend should the "milk sucklers" need an answer. Opportunity doesn't always present itself at the most opportune times, and being prepared to communicate the message to anyone and everyone who asks, I feel is necessary.1 Peter 3:15 comes to my mind when I reason this. The division of body, soul, and spirit is not that impossible to relate to someone. I also love the "Lazarus not ever speaking" aspect of your statement on the Luke passages. It really does shed an interesting light on the reading. AnotherTraveler, Mark 12:27, is a rebuke of the Sadducees,by Jesus, in regards to their denial of a resurrection. Matt 17:3, I think we would all agree that Elias and Moses were the stated exception to the rule. Rev 6:9-11, I am not of the opinion that this details everyone who died in Christ, hence the wording of 6:9"that were slain for the word of God". A study of the word used for "slain" here would define it as slay,butchered,slaughtered, maimed, violently killed, mortally wounded, etc... There is no passive definition to include those who might have "died in their rocking chair in Christ", or "died peacefully of old age in Christ". These souls are also very seperate, specific individuals I believe. eric, thank you also for your considerate post and for your statement on encouraging a brother or sister when in agreement. It is such a pleasure to see brotherly love. His faithful servant, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
givennewname Posted November 30, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 324 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/16/1964 Share Posted November 30, 2007 Hi everyone, Greetings in the name of the Lord. There have been a bit of confusion here as I think everyone is not wrong, they are just not reading the appropriate scripture in context and considering that Old testament and New testament destinations after one dies are different. Few definitions first: I see the word paradise being used interchangeably with heaven. Paradise is not heaven. Strong's definition: Paradise is a garden, or the original Persian word for a beautiful garden possibly the original word for the garden of Eden. It is a holding place for the righteous dead before the advent of the Lord Jesus. Maybe located where the New testament identifies as Abraham's bosom G3857 παράδεισος paradeisos par-ad'-i-sos Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted November 30, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted November 30, 2007 How do we know that after the resurrection of the Lord, believers go to heaven?? Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? I reiterate my previous post on this verse... Rev 6:9-11, I am not of the opinion that this details everyone who died in Christ, hence the wording of 6:9 "that were slain for the word of God". A study of the word used for "slain" here would define it as slay,butchered,slaughtered, maimed, violently killed, mortally wounded, etc... There is no passive definition to include those who might have "died in their rocking chair in Christ", or "died peacefully of old age in Christ". These souls are also very seperate, specific individuals I believe. in Christ, His faithful servant, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 30, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 30, 2007 To Masserite from post #20, Hi there, I didn't want quote the whole post, just a couple of points that took my interest, but firstly I would agree that this particular subject can be emotional for some so I'm not going to take sides with anyone. you posted, Most believe that when we die we go directly to heaven but there is not one single verse written anywhere in the bible that tells us that "when we die we will go to heaven" . I agree with that. The thousand year reign with Christ occurs before anyone gets to heaven, as I understand the word. now later, in the same post you wrote, Charles Stanley is one of the most powerful, nationally known pastors in our country. His ministry is blessed by God and he preaches into the lives of millions of believers every week. One day I heard him state on national television "You get your name written in the Lambs book of life when you get saved." You know there is nowhere in the word of God where that is written. . Well I have to agree on both counts in that statement. Charles Stanley IMO is one of the best teachers of the word you could find, but like all men, he can only preach from what he has learned during his training, or from a different stand point. I have no reason to believe that one's name is written in the book of life at salvation. It's nowhere to be found in the bible. I'm afraid, but I am one of the people that believe one's name is written at the moment of one's conception and is erased if one has not the Son, at death 1Jn5:9-13. Some times it doesn't hurt to encourage one another, when you agree with a bro or sis. cheers, eric Thank you very much. I am blessed by your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
givennewname Posted December 1, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 324 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/16/1964 Share Posted December 1, 2007 How do we know that after the resurrection of the Lord, believers go to heaven?? Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? I reiterate my previous post on this verse... Rev 6:9-11, I am not of the opinion that this details everyone who died in Christ, hence the wording of 6:9 "that were slain for the word of God". A study of the word used for "slain" here would define it as slay,butchered,slaughtered, maimed, violently killed, mortally wounded, etc... There is no passive definition to include those who might have "died in their rocking chair in Christ", or "died peacefully of old age in Christ". These souls are also very seperate, specific individuals I believe. in Christ, His faithful servant, Christian If heaven is the place where "butchered" Christians go, then there are two sets of destination, one who go to the grave without being butchered who did not make it to heaven, and another who gained instant heaven after being butchered. This is works based theology!! Sounds very much like Islam, where the jihadist gain instant heaven, the rest will have to await judgement at the judgement throne on the last days. New creature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted December 1, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted December 1, 2007 How do we know that after the resurrection of the Lord, believers go to heaven?? Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? I reiterate my previous post on this verse... Rev 6:9-11, I am not of the opinion that this details everyone who died in Christ, hence the wording of 6:9 "that were slain for the word of God". A study of the word used for "slain" here would define it as slay,butchered,slaughtered, maimed, violently killed, mortally wounded, etc... There is no passive definition to include those who might have "died in their rocking chair in Christ", or "died peacefully of old age in Christ". These souls are also very seperate, specific individuals I believe. in Christ, His faithful servant, Christian If heaven is the place where "butchered" Christians go, then there are two sets of destination, one who go to the grave without being butchered who did not make it to heaven, and another who gained instant heaven after being butchered. This is works based theology!! Sounds very much like Islam, where the jihadist gain instant heaven, the rest will have to await judgement at the judgement throne on the last days. New creature First of all there is no place in the bible where it says that when we die we will go instantly to heaven. Infarct there is no place in the bible where it is written telling us that when we die we go to heaven instantly or other wise. This doesn't mean that we don't go to heaven but it does mean that for the most part our understanding of what the bible does say is distorted because we read into the bible what we want it to say. So here is what the bible does say. Rev.7-9 After this I beheld and lo a great great multitude which no man could number of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes and palms in their hands". The multitude which no man can count are all of the Christians who have died for the past 2000 years plus whether they died a peaceful death, a martyred death or were changed on the day of Christ as the bible doesn't say one way or the other how these saints died. The white robes signify purity. Just as it was done in Jewish custom at the time of Jesus the Bridegroom and His entourage (the angels) would go to the brides house and pick up the bride. Then the bridegroom would take her back to his fathers house and present her to his father as an acceptable gift. Jude 24 & Col. 1:22. We should remember that heaven is the abode of God and we are in heaven for a very short time until we come back to a new earth and a new Jerusalem which is where we will spend eternity. Rev 22. There are three distinations for those who die in Christ before the day of Christ. They are Paradise first, heaven second, and back to the new earth last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted December 2, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted December 2, 2007 Brother Massorite, You blew past the discussion on Revelation 6:9, and quoted 7:9. Do agree or disagree with the word study/definition for slain based on G4969, σφάζω, sphazō, sfad'-z? Please elaborate on it's use, and it's association to those under the altar. If heaven is the place where "butchered" Christians go, then there are two sets of destination, one who go to the grave without being butchered who did not make it to heaven, and another who gained instant heaven after being butchered. New creature I am going on the literal translation of the verse (6:9) using it's action verb. I am not seeking to make it "works based", nor do I find it hard to conceive of a loving God who might wish those near Him who where barbarized for Him. I don't know why there can be no differentiation between those "under the altar" from those "before the throne of" in 7:9 given this context. These are victims we are speaking of here...not jihadists. There are three distinations for those who die in Christ before the day of Christ. They are Paradise first, heaven second, and back to the new earth last. So you are saying... 1) Death in Christ... go to Paradise (earthly grave, soul awaits Christ in non-"heaven" place) 2) Soul goes to heaven with Christ at the first resurrection 3) Soul returns with Christ for 1000 year reign. If this is not the sequence you described can you please be more specific about your 1,2,3? listed above in your post Thank you my brother in Christ, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted December 5, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted December 5, 2007 Brother Massorite, You blew past the discussion on Revelation 6:9, and quoted 7:9. Do agree or disagree with the word study/definition for slain based on G4969, σφάζω, sphazō, sfad'-z? Please elaborate on it's use, and it's association to those under the altar. If heaven is the place where "butchered" Christians go, then there are two sets of destination, one who go to the grave without being butchered who did not make it to heaven, and another who gained instant heaven after being butchered. New creature I am going on the literal translation of the verse (6:9) using it's action verb. I am not seeking to make it "works based", nor do I find it hard to conceive of a loving God who might wish those near Him who where barbarized for Him. I don't know why there can be no differentiation between those "under the altar" from those "before the throne of" in 7:9 given this context. These are victims we are speaking of here...not jihadists. There are three distinations for those who die in Christ before the day of Christ. They are Paradise first, heaven second, and back to the new earth last. So you are saying... 1) Death in Christ... go to Paradise (earthly grave, soul awaits Christ in non-"heaven" place) 2) Soul goes to heaven with Christ at the first resurrection 3) Soul returns with Christ for 1000 year reign. If this is not the sequence you described can you please be more specific about your 1,2,3? listed above in your post Thank you my brother in Christ, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeCajunboy Posted December 11, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 113 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,430 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 33 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/24/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/28/1952 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I will also re-frame this discussion and open it up a bit. You see my intention is to examine the responses, as they pertain to definite scriptural examples...not learned positions or opinions. I'm curious how you would go about communicating this subject to the un-saved who do not possess the Bible background that we might. So by using "scripture to interpret scripture" it cuts down on the "personal license" we might use in discussing it, which in turn would cut down on their confusion over our inconsistencies in presenting it to them. And please do not fall back into 1 Corinthians 2:14 as some means to explain their inability to comprehend. I have known saved Christians who have struggled to grasp this concept. So as a lawyer character in well known movie once stated..."OK, I'm having trouble grasping this, so why don't you go ahead and explain it to me like I'm a 6 year old". Depart from any overcomplicated pious exegesis and try to bring your case down to the point that a laymen could understand you. Onward and upward, His faithful servant, Christian Hi Christian, I now understand what you're trying to accomplish. To make us aware of how important it is to use scripture based versus to encourage non-believers. Problem is , many non-believers will turn away a the blink of an eye if they think you are trying to quote scripture/verse to them. I believe and use the theory to gain their respect/friendship in hopes that they will view how I live and walk in God's grace as an example of Christ, rather than throwing scripture at them, which usually turns them off. Then much later in our lives I will use scripture when they feel more comfortable with me and my intentions. This is what works in my life. Blessings Cajunboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patricia1 Posted December 11, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,858 Content Per Day: 0.30 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/23/1957 Share Posted December 11, 2007 well christian I do not belive you answered my post un less it came later in the threads and I missed it. Post # 22 oh hello there Cajun... you will dance in heaven!!! Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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