Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage

[anitarose]

I'm sorry Sherman, I'm about to become uncivil.

A man who has sex with another man instead of his wife ISN'T CHEATING????? Wow, I think God needs to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah for that one!!!!

I didn't have sex with my husband for 13 years. He was having sex with OTHER MEN. I guess that makes me pretty stupid then, doesn't it?

I am not looking to men as my source for answers, I'm looking to God as He is the Author of HIS WORD. HIS WORD is the entire Bible, not just bits and pieces of it.

I am trying to be civil here but I must admit I am rather angry at a person's response and I will not reveal who. I don't like the response? Give me a break. Men's words are just that---MEN'S WORDS. God's Word is ETERNAL and I will take GOD'S WORD OVER MEN'S WORDS ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

Why is it when I respond to ANY post in ANYTHING other than Fellowship Hall, I get grief over my words? I express my opinion, and that's it. My opinion is like everyone else's.....but MINE seem to be just taken apart, examined and thrown out as HERESY for some reason.

Forgive me, but I need to stop here before I really get UNCIVIL.

Anita

[Guest Greg Davies]

O.K. Sherman,

I know you are enjoying educating us all on the cultural stuff. It is informative, but can we get to the point as to how all this applies to the statements Jesus made concerning MDR?

I feel like you are stringing us out with all this information and it is probably not going to change what is the plain meaning of the scriptures we have discussed are. That being that one cannot remarry except for the death of the spouse or "porneia". Yes?

Greg.

[anitarose]

One thing we need to keep in mind is that we are not under what Moses said to the Jews about giving a bill of divorce. We are under what Jesus and Paul wrote about the subject.

Ok, cardcaptor, now I'm going to throw some of Jesus' own words right back at you regarding the Law. I still say it's a doctrinal issue and we need to go to HIM first with the answer, but here's what HE said regarding the Law:

Matthew 5:18 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

NOW.....you say we're not under the law, but under grace. I say we're under the WHOLE BIBLE, law AND grace. We don't have to live BY the law, but the LAW is our schoolmasters, our teachers. It is our EXAMPLE. And note the words "till all be fulfilled"....NOT EVERYTHING HAS BEEN FULFILLED YET...Jesus has not established His throne on this earth yet....so therefore, we are under both the Law AND under grace....You cannot say that we aren't under Moses' example of the bill of divorcement USING THIS ARGUMENT.

Please come up with something else.

Anita

[Sherman]

I'm sorry Sherman, I'm about to become uncivil.

A man who has sex with another man instead of his wife ISN'T CHEATING????? Wow, I think God needs to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah for that one!!!!

I didn't have sex with my husband for 13 years. He was having sex with OTHER MEN. I guess that makes me pretty stupid then, doesn't it?

I am not looking to men as my source for answers, I'm looking to God as He is the Author of HIS WORD. HIS WORD is the entire Bible, not just bits and pieces of it.

I am trying to be civil here but I must admit I am rather angry at a person's response and I will not reveal who. I don't like the response? Give me a break. Men's words are just that---MEN'S WORDS. God's Word is ETERNAL and I will take GOD'S WORD OVER MEN'S WORDS ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

Why is it when I respond to ANY post in ANYTHING other than Fellowship Hall, I get grief over my words? I express my opinion, and that's it. My opinion is like everyone else's.....but MINE seem to be just taken apart, examined and thrown out as HERESY for some reason.

Forgive me, but I need to stop here before I really get UNCIVIL.

Anita

Anita, I'm sorry that some of the things shared on this post have upset you. I encourage you to not take the remarks of others personal; rather, take them in the best possible way you can assuming that we mean well though we might be misguided. What is it Jesus said, "Forgive them for they don't know what they are doing." When you post on a doctrinal thread like this, you have to expect others to discect every word you write, misunderstand some of what you've written, make wrong assumptions about you and what you are trying to do, and some will even attack you personally.

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

Blessings,

Sherman

[anitarose]

Anita, I'm sorry that some of the things shared on this post have upset you. I encourage you to not take the remarks of others personal; rather, take them in the best possible way you can assuming that we mean well though we might be misguided. What is it Jesus said, "Forgive them for they don't know what they are doing." When you post on a doctrinal thread like this, you have to expect others to discect every word you write, misunderstand some of what you've written, make wrong assumptions about you and what you are trying to do, and some will even attack you personally.

"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

Blessings,

Sherman

I appreciate that, Sherman, but you have to understand that I've been living this hell for 15 years now, and for some reason I can't get a divorce and get out of it to get happy. My ex has already declared that he's never going to change and God told me that my marriage was over before it actually started. That's why I understand what Zoe-Girl's going through. She and I have been through the worst part of hell with our spouses, and then to have some person "spouting" their ideas of what the Gospel says, I'm sorry it really irritates me. I know what God has told me in my heart. I know what God is leading me to do. Who cares what some MAN says, cause that's all it is---a MAN saying it. Religion, tradition, and misinterpretation of Scriptures.

Go back to reading what the WHOLE BIBLE says rather than just selected parts and then do the scripture twist on it. Like I said in the last post I put up: Jesus Himself said that not one jot nor one tittle of the law shall pass until Scripture is fulfilled. Not all scripture HAS been fulfilled, so the law is still intact and hasn't been thrown out and those that say it has had better go back and read it again.

If I had the opportunity, even though I still care about him and pray every day for his salvation, I'd be the first one with stone in hand to throw at my ex husband. That's where the grace comes in. Since Jesus gave Himself for our sins, we have to have the grace to forgive those who sin against us. I have forgiven my ex, but he is still committing the sin and won't stop. That's the "reprobate mind" in place.

I won't bother anyone again on this.

Anita

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Sherman you completely dodged what I said about aw of first mention and God's Perfect will.

That's the #1 trans-cultural reason that Jesus inspired Moses to legislate the bill of divorce. Is there another reason?

Jesus clearly states Himself that Moses "allowed" them to put away their wives because of the hardness of their hearts. Not a commandment at all. Moses was basically saying that if they were going to do it, it would be preferable to give a writ so as to slow the process and quite possibly change the situation. It would also allow someone else like a Rabbi to investigate the matter. He was allowing them to continue in an abhorrent practice that they had picked up, like a case of fleas, from the Egyptians they had been in bondage to. Jesus also goes on to clearly state that He is now asserting that it was not so from the beginning.

Jesus clearly is stating that He did not inspire this at all and now was setting it straight.

Again we are back to the matter of the heart and the abhorrent scab now being picked.

The verse you are quoting in Luke 16:18 is in exact cooperation with this concept being conveyed by the Lord.

The Lord uses the surrounding verses to connect the covetousness and the licentiousness of the Pharisse to their wicked hearts and worldliness.

You keep stating that Moseses civil regulation was a commandment inspired by God. Yet God Himself in the flesh states otherwise.

Do you not believe the Lord who you say inspired the Word would not also clearly understand it's intent?

It is because of the wicked hearts and practices of the Old Testament Jew that God permitted this writ of Divorce. Yet now He is declaring a Greater Law and it was First. The Law of the Spirit now to be written on the heart.

Hardness of heart was the issue and remains the issue. It has nothing to do with womens rights. If the heart were right there would be no issue at all with the rights of women. She would be loved and adored, yes even died for as the Lord has Loved, Adored, and died for His Church.

Peace,

Dave

[Sherman]

O.K. Sherman,

I know you are enjoying educating us all on the cultural stuff. It is informative, but can we get to the point as to how all this applies to the statements Jesus made concerning MDR?

I feel like you are stringing us out with all this information and it is probably not going to change what is the plain meaning of the scriptures we have discussed are. That being that one cannot remarry except for the death of the spouse or "porneia". Yes?

Greg.

Hi Greg, concerning educating others on all this cultural stuff, I do enjoy teaching, but I'm sad that much of the information that I share is not widely known though plenty verifiable. For me, this information radically impacts my understanding and interpretation of what Jesus said. I'm sorry that you feel like I'm stringing you along. In one of my first posts I pointed out that I believe that Jesus was dealing with two related but different problems. 1) Men expelling their wives, not giving them a bill of divorce, likely in order to not pay the dowry, and thus relegating the such separated wives to an adulterated status. Women in this situation could not legally remarry and should either remain unmarried or be reconciled to their husbands. However, if their husbands gave them divorce papers, these women were free to remarry.

The 2nd problem was men divorcing their wives for selfish reasons, particularized by the phrase "in order to marry another woman." The issue was the motive of the heart behind the divorce, not the act of remarriage for either the woman or the man so divorced. This was especially true for the men in near-eastern cultures where polygamy was and is practiced. Problem 2) was the "hateful divorces", divorces based on selfish reasons. Jesus spoke as a prophet, not a civil legislator.

Another important thing to consider is, biblically speaking, which authority structure is over issues concerning MDR - religeous, civil, domestic, or personal? Who does and should control such issues? As Christians, we accept that All Authority comes from God, and that ultimately everyone is responsible personally before God; but biblically speaking, which authority structure controls marriage (for good or bad)?

In Israel, in the OT, issues concerning MDR were primarily a domestic family affair but it also had limited civil oversight. Even divorce originally was a domestic issue with little, if any, civil oversight; but by the time of Christ, divorce had become largely controlled by civil rabbinical judicial authority - thus the big argument over the "Any Matter" divorce proceedings and philosophy. And today, MDR is clearly under civil authority (good or evil). This in itself is a big discussion, a big bite to chew on.

If you or anyone is interested is additional research on the Cultural Context of MDR in the Bible, I recommend Dr. David Instone-Brewer's book concerning the social and literary context of MDR in the Bible.

[Sherman]

Grace to you,

Sherman you completely dodged what I said about aw of first mention and God's Perfect will.

That's the #1 trans-cultural reason that Jesus inspired Moses to legislate the bill of divorce. Is there another reason?

Jesus clearly states Himself that Moses "allowed" them to put away their wives because of the hardness of their hearts. Not a commandment at all. Moses was basically saying that if they were going to do it, it would be preferable to give a writ so as to slow the process and quite possibly change the situation. It would also allow someone else like a Rabbi to investigate the matter. He was allowing them to continue in an abhorrent practice that they had picked up, like a case of fleas, from the Egyptians they had been in bondage to. Jesus also goes on to clearly state that He is now asserting that it was not so from the beginning.

Jesus clearly is stating that He did not inspire this at all and now was setting it straight.

Again we are back to the matter of the heart and the abhorrent scab now being picked.

The verse you are quoting in Luke 16:18 is in exact cooperation with this concept being conveyed by the Lord.

The Lord uses the surrounding verses to connect the covetousness and the licentiousness of the Pharisse to their wicked hearts and worldliness.

You keep stating that Moseses civil regulation was a commandment inspired by God. Yet God Himself in the flesh states otherwise.

Do you not believe the Lord who you say inspired the Word would not also clearly understand it's intent?

It is because of the wicked hearts and practices of the Old Testament Jew that God permitted this writ of Divorce. Yet now He is declaring a Greater Law and it was First. The Law of the Spirit now to be written on the heart.

Hardness of heart was the issue and remains the issue. It has nothing to do with womens rights. If the heart were right there would be no issue at all with the rights of women. She would be loved and adored, yes even died for as the Lord has Loved, Adored, and died for His Church.

Peace,

Dave

Hi Dave,

I didn't mean to dodge anything; I simply disagree with your interpretation. Jesus did not disagree with Moses; Jesus inspired Moses to legislate the bill of divorce. In Mt.19, the Pharisees are attempting to trap Jesus. They are hoping to embroil Him in a heated debate over the "Any Matter" no-fault divorce. They figured that this would catch Him between the horns of a dillema, and possibly get Him in hot water with Herod and Herodias. Jesus did not fall for the trap; rather, He side-steped the issue and pointed them back to what God originally intended for mankind - the Garden, a little heaven on earth, loving, fulfilling, life-long marriages. Instead of arguing over divorce legislation trying to control people, they should spend their time and effort empowering people to have healthy relationships. Furthermore, Jesus did not disagree with Moses, but was against men becoming hard-hearted and treating their wives so badly. Seeing their trap fail, the Pharisees replied asking, Why then did Moses legislate the bill of divorce?

But before I get into interpreting Mt.19.9 as I understand it, there are a couple of other things I need to point out. Thanks for your patience, and I'm sorry for dragging this out, it just takes time to put everything together.

Blessings,

Sherman

[Guest Greg Davies]

If you or anyone is interested is additional research on the Cultural Context of MDR in the Bible, I recommend Dr. David Instone-Brewer's book concerning the social and literary context of MDR in the Bible.

Yea, but what do you think about Jesus said. Please tell me, I've gotta know!

Just teasing, sort of.

Greg.

[Sherman]

In response to the Pharisees