Christians and the beach

[Guest shiloh357]

Wow, you are defensive. You know, I did not even quote you. You assume I am referring to your posts. There are lots of female posters placing heavy emphasis on the need for men to keep their thoughts pure and etc. I just dont think that is the best place for a woman's primary focus to be and is not a very productive attitude.

No, you didn't quote me, but you also did not qualify that you only speaking to the women on this thread who are pointing the finger at men. My posts and many of the comments I have made fall into the category you were finding fault with. Therfore, by default, I am included and had no reason to think otherwise. I simply speak up to your remarks as they apply to me.

As I previously indicated, No one, including the female posters claimed a responsibility to point out the need for men to look the other way and behave modestly. Nor did they indicate that such was their primary focus. It seems that values are being assigned to other people's positions, which are, heretofore, unsubstantiated.

[Emily~Anne]

See Shiloh, I can easily find alot of posts where women place the primary blame on men. So, I post those for you, and then umm.. do you think those women will be upset? Is that conducive to trying to at least somewhat get along while still making my point? I specified over and over, about where I think us WOMEN'S focus needs to be.

[Emily~Anne]

Wow, you are defensive. You know, I did not even quote you. You assume I am referring to your posts. There are lots of female posters placing heavy emphasis on the need for men to keep their thoughts pure and etc. I just dont think that is the best place for a woman's primary focus to be and is not a very productive attitude.

No, you didn't quote me, but you also did not qualify that you only speaking to the women on this thread who are pointing the finger at men. My posts and many of the comments I have made fall into the category you were finding fault with. Therfore, by default, I am included and had no reason to think otherwise. I simply speak up to your remarks as they apply to me.

As I previously indicated, No one, including the female posters claimed a responsibility to point out the need for men to look the other way and behave modestly. Nor did they indicate that such was their primary focus. It seems that values are being assigned to other people's positions, which are, heretofore, unsubstantiated.

To quote myself:

Us women, what is the point is us crying out 'foul!' and pointing fingers at men who do not keep their thoughts pure? Are us women supposed to be exhorting the men to keep their thoughts pure? No, I think we are best just to focus on ourselves and dressing reasonably modest (I dont think amish bathing suits and burkas are called for however) and keep in mind Titus 2:3-5 and that to quote Vickilynn: it is the older WOMEN'S responsibility to teach the younger ones in this and other areas of the being a G-dly woman.

So you really thought I was referring to both men and women?

[AndrewA]

I covered all these points in a previous post, obvsiouly there posts are just going around in ciricles. Repeating a point over and over isnt going to sway those who think otherwise. We have already covered just about every issues.

I shall summerize

First define modest. this is the main problem, however I consider a woman to be modestly dress if she wears a high neck line that will not or looks as though it will gape when she bends over. short skirts above the knee should not be worn. Tight clothing is not modest, not suggesting a baggy sack but certainly anything that draws attention to the females chest and waist below is not good.

A women dressed this way should not be blamed for a mans sin or weakness if he decides to lust etc , but if a woman is showing most of her cleavage for example then yes she must share part of the blame if a man goes away with immoral thoughts about her.

Church one should dress to at least the above, we should most definitely not put temptation in the way of the members of body of Christ, if man struggles with lust then it is not fair that a woman put her body on display for him to enjoy. Of course we do not know who has these problems so be on guard all time. Same goes for outside church in most public places, go to library, shops or whatever and dress modestly, you don't know if a Christian male struggling with lust is standing behind you or sitting opposite you.

However places like the beach you can wear just about anything you like. A man who struggles with lust and immoral thoughts should never go within a mile a beach , if he does and happens to spot you then that is entirely his problem as you are simply one of hundreds of such dressed women on the beach.

the US seem to hold nudity and female body as almost a taboo, its not surprising how some people react. In other cultures women spend all thier life going around topless and no one bats an eyelid. Men can quite happily sit amongst a group of naked women and not have an impure thought, where as someone who has a problem can lust over just about any women regardless of what they wear.

If a Christian man puts himself in a position where he can ogle women then that is entirly his problem not the womens, however if a woman is attending church or church functions then she should dress modestly so as not to make that man stumble Remember we do not know who has these problems and so must be dressed accordingly at all times.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

More from the John Macarthur teaching:

I. THE ATTITUDE OF WOMEN (v. 9b)

"With godly fear and sobriety"

A. Godly Fear

The Greek word translated "godly fear" (aid[ma]os) refers to modesty mixed with humility. It connotes a sense of shame--not shame in being a woman, but in any way inciting lust or distracting others from a proper worship of God. A woman with a proper sense of shame will dress in such a way as not to be a source of temptation. Aid[ma]os implies morally rejecting anything dishonorable to God. This is the woman who would be so grieved over the possibility of offending God that she would never do anything that could cause anyone to stumble.

B. Self-Control

"Sobriety" (Gk. , s[ma]ophrosun[ma]e ) is better translated "self- control. " It has a sexual connotation in extrabiblical literature, where it speaks of totally controlling one's passions and desires. In The Republic Plato said it is one of the four cardinal virtues.

1. The danger of failing to exercise self-control

a) To the leaders

In 1 Timothy 3 Paul says that both elders and deacons in the church must be "the husband of one wife" (vv. 2, 12). That phrase can be literally translated as "a one-woman man. " A man in a leadership role in the church must be totally devoted to his wife. I believe one of the major problems at Ephesus was that the leaders were not faithful to their wives. Satan attacked the church by bringing alluring women into the church to seduce the leadership. He does the same thing today.

b) To the congregations

(1) At Ephesus

In 1 Timothy 5:14 Paul stressed the importance of younger widows remarrying. He knew that a large number of single women with strong desire for marriage was a potential danger to the purity of the church. And that's true in our day too.

(2) At Crete

In Titus 2:4-5 Paul instructs Titus that older women are to teach young women "to be sober minded, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of God be not blasphemed. " Instead of doing good, some women were causing problems in the congregation.

(3) At Corinth

In 1 Corinthians 5 Paul rebukes the Corinthians for tolerating a situation involving sexual sin. In fact, it was a form of sexual sin that was repulsive even to pagans: a man was having an affair with his father's wife (his stepmother). That was a form of incest. What was worse, instead of mourning over that sin, the Corinthians oddly enough were boasting about it (v. 2)! According to 1 Corinthians 6:13 they attempted to justify sexual sin by quoting what was perhaps a common Greek proverb: "Foods for the body and the body for foods. " That is to say sex, like eating, is merely a biological function, so why get upset about it? But Paul warned the Corinthians to flee from sexual sin (v. 18). There is little doubt in my mind that the problem concerning women with improper motives plagued the church at Corinth as well as the churches in Ephesus and Crete.

2. The judgment for failing to exercise self-control

In Isaiah 3:16-26 God pronounces judgment on women who dressed to draw attention to themselves: "The Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet; therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will uncover their secret parts. In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling anklets, and their headbands, and their crescents like the moon, the pendants, and the bracelets, and the veils, the headdresses, and the armlets, and the sashes, and the perfume boxes, and the amulets, the rings, and nose rings, the festival robes, and the mantles, and the cloaks, and the handbags, the hand mirrors, and the linen wrappers, and the turbans, and the veils. And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet fragrance there shall be rottenness; and instead of a girdle, a rope; and instead of well set hair, baldness; and instead of a robe, a girding of sackcloth; and branding instead of beauty. Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war. And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground. " To wear jewelry or expensive clothes is not evil, but to wear them for evil purposes is. Clothing that reflects impure motives has no place in the church.

[Emily~Anne]

I want to add: Todays' style makes it hard to maintain a modest style. I guess maybe part of the problem for me is I am so thin I must shop in the Junior's department. Petite does not work as I am not short. I went to Old Navy the other day. Wow, those hip huggers looked great! Those hip huggers, I have never seen them baggy in the rear. It is hard to dress modestly with those hip huggers. I'd have to wear a very long tunic in order to be modest in those. I dress very plain. If I were to go with the style, I would not be dressed in a modest manner. Guess I havent figured out how to be stylish and modest at the same time so I just settle for plain jane look. I wish LL.Bean would carry their women's clothing in smaller sizes. I do feel there is a need for Titus Two women to remind the younger ladies, that though it may look in style and all that, it is not neceassrily the way to go. If I wore hip huggers and tight tops and etc., I feel I would be laying a stumbling block before both woman AND men, in that I need to be an example to the younger ladies. I suppose my example would be better if I showed how to dress modest and be stylish at the same time, unfortunately I am a fashion moron. So plain jane is what I do.

By the way, I wear pants that are two sizes too big and then wear a belt. I cant even find a nice pair of Docker's in my size!

[Scarletprayers]

I don't have that problem, I couldn't wear the "styles" because I'm short and over weight, so I pretty much dress dowdy because there isn't much else I can do. I guess I have it easy in that regard, its pretty easy when the other way isn't and option.

[AndrewA]

I want to add: Todays' style makes it hard to maintain a modest style.

That is not suprising. Fashion industry is run by Satan as just about every designer is of the world and therefore belongs to Satan. Satan has no use for modest clothes.

[Vickilynn]

I want to add: Todays' style makes it hard to maintain a modest style. I guess maybe part of the problem for me is I am so thin I must shop in the Junior's department. Petite does not work as I am not short. I went to Old Navy the other day. Wow, those hip huggers looked great! Those hip huggers, I have never seen them baggy in the rear. It is hard to dress modestly with those hip huggers. I'd have to wear a very long tunic in order to be modest in those. I dress very plain. If I were to go with the style, I would not be dressed in a modest manner. Guess I havent figured out how to be stylish and modest at the same time so I just settle for plain jane look. I wish LL.Bean would carry their women's clothing in smaller sizes. I do feel there is a need for Titus Two women to remind the younger ladies, that though it may look in style and all that, it is not neceassrily the way to go. If I wore hip huggers and tight tops and etc., I feel I would be laying a stumbling block before both woman AND men, in that I need to be an example to the younger ladies. I suppose my example would be better if I showed how to dress modest and be stylish at the same time, unfortunately I am a fashion moron. So plain jane is what I do.

By the way, I wear pants that are two sizes too big and then wear a belt. I cant even find a nice pair of Docker's in my size!

Shalom Emily Anne,

Do you sew at all?

Do you like to wear skirts or jumpers?

I don't sew, but as I'm losing weight I'm finding that I love to wear skirts rather than pants. I also love to wear dresses.

I do most of my shopping at Goodwill and find some really great clothes there.

The modest part is just making sure that nothing is showing

[Guest shiloh357]

See Shiloh, I can easily find alot of posts where women place the primary blame on men.

No, that was not what was being discussed. It was not that they place the primary blame on men. We were talking about whether or not they feel it is their primary responsiblity to point the finger at men. I asked you to post where they said that they felt it was their primary focus or responsility to point the finger at men.