WN: CIA Destroyed Videos of Interrogations - ABC News

[buckthesystem]

Sure I believe the Bible. I just have a problem with your interpretation of some of it. There is no way that I will ever believe that God gave "authority" to any mortal man whatsoever.

Like I said...you don't even crack the pages of a Bible yet try to present yourself as an expert on Jesus. OK...here you go. The very words of Jesus stating that the authority for Pilate to torture Him came from the Father

John 19:10

Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have authority to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no authority at all against me, except it were given thee from above:

I explained all that in the above post. I really don't know how you could see it any other way!

And that really is the problem...you and Lorax don't understand biblical authority. You create ways that make your own intellect greater than the Word of God. This is why you side with the rebellious and the wicked. There is no discerning of spirits when you don't have discernment of authority AND submission to that authority. As much as I disagree with Bush and his predecessor, I repect their authority to wield the sword. In the USA we have civil rights that allow us to change leadership through the political process, so the responsibility for what they do belongs to us, the citizens. Bush is doing the will of most Americans at this time by protecting us from foreign enemies. He's actually quite soft compared to past leaders but that is another discussion...

Sure you believe that if you want to, but I see it as far too "way out and radical" to ever take seriously! As for me: I will only ever recognise the authority of God! And I will believe this until God himself either confirms that or tells me otherwise! I don't submit to ANYONE except God! Your quote again: "In the USA we have civil rights that allow us to change leadership through the political process.." Yeah, sure you do, sure you do. Do you also get to choose which civil servants are "in power" also? Remember that it is the civil servants who really control things. And when was the last time you got to vote at the UN? It is also the UN that controls a lot of things. Now another question - which you really have to ponder on (it is really a rhetorical question) - is Bush really doing what the will of the people dictate?

Romans 13 makes it clear that God has given EVERY government the power of the sword..some for good some for evil. He uses even the wicked to do His will and perform judgement. If the Taliban or Al Queda were to take over the USA, I would have to accept that it was God's will to judge us for wickedness...and for having weak leaders.

The last word on this must go to Chuck Baldwin, who said: "No man has unlimited authority over the lives of other men. (Lordship and Sovereignty is the exclusive domain of Jesus Christ.)"

We can only reject idolotry but even then it must be done with respect for authority. Remember Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednigo willfully submitting to Nebuchanezzars ruling to put them in a furnace? Daniels reaction to being fed to lions? Joseph to Potipher's putting him in prison?

So you are saying that you would easily talk yourself into believing that you should worship an idol "under the right circumstances" as it must be done with respect for authority? Now if Shadrack, Meshack and Abednigo had really "respected man's authority" believing it to be God's command to do so, they would have just toed the line and in the first place. And the same goes for Daniel, he would have done what he was told and not prayed aloud.

Almost every prophet of the bible (including Jesus) submitted to wicked rulers as unto the Lord. They did so without being personally corrupted...but they did understand that all authority comes from God.

Again, if they had truly submitted to man's authority and believed that God had appointed these people to those positions, they would have lived simple obedient lives, shut up and not ever "rocked the boat".

.

[buckthesystem]

this is much ado about nothing. It will fizzle. No one cares what they do to terrorists. Not saying it's right or wrong...just saying this isn't going to have any legs.

I still want to know about the tapes the Clintons destroyed concerning Vince Foster. That appeared to be a murder cover up of an american who was on their staff and who cares today? Do you really think Americans care what happens to captured al queda in a cuban prison?

that's funny.

Is that old yarn ever going to go away? It was proven Vince Foster committed suicide.....

"Proven"????? When was this ever "proven"??

I must have missed something, and you must have more knowledge of this case than anybody else for you to be so sure of a "proven suicide"!

You seem to be remarkably trusting! From what I can see unanswered questions follow the Clintons round where ever they go. I'm just speculating, but I certainly wouldn't say that anything to do with the Clintons is "proven". I think "I don't recall..." is Bill Clinton's middle name and Hillary's middle name is "Corruption"!

As for "Is that old yarn ever going to go away?" You must know that good conspiracy theories never really go away!

Now where did I put that tin foil hat? Gee I can't concentrate on looking for it with the sound of all those black helicopters hovering above.

[Axxman]

Torture is voluntary. ANYONE held captive by America can opt out of the torture process at any time by telling us EVERYTHING we want to know. If a person refuses to cooperate they are willfully accepting the consequences.

Are you serious Axxman? With some of the things you say I have trouble believing that you are a follower of Jesus.

I cannot imagine Jesus agreeing with this statement!

I guess I'm lucky that my place in Heaven isn't contingent upon whether or not you believe I'm a follower of Jesus.

Let me ask you...what is the other option? Do we simply not get vital info and allow thousands of people to die? If we were talking about torture as a form of punishment (i.e. Jesus) then we have a discussion. Can't we make exceptions when the torture is to avoid death and destruction? Or would you rather see thousands of people die?

Bottom line...the bible does not speak out against torture and beatings...

Exodus 21:20-21

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

(some beatings/torture is allowed as long as it does not lead to death)

Nehemiah 13:25

I rebuked them and called curses down on them. I beat some of the men and pulled out their hair. I made them take an oath in God's name and said: "You are not to give your daughters in marriage to their sons, nor are you to take their daughters in marriage for your sons or for yourselves."

(Nehemiah is usually held as an example of a very just and good leader and here he beats/tortures some of his people)

Proverbs 20:30

Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being.

(beatings can improve you)

Matthew 8:29

"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

(The demons expect Jesus to torture them eventually)

Matthew 18:34

In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

(proverb about torture)

Mark 5:7

He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!"

(once again a demon expects to be tortured by Jesus)

Revelation 9:4-6

They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

(Not marked by God: get tortured)

[The Lorax]

Lorax...I obviously confused you with someone else. that doesn't excuse me since it is such a grievous thing I accused you of.

please forgive me. I promise not to forget that.

No problem. It was an honest mistake.

[The Lorax]

Let me ask you...what is the other option? Do we simply not get vital info and allow thousands of people to die?

Torture doesn't produce reliable intel. People will say and do anything to make the pain stop.

[damo1]

damo1

well from what i am hearing the CIA is in a fair bit of trouble yet what also puzzles me can the CIA agents be charged like the citazens of America or is their a special law set aside for CIA agents and FBI agents ?

this has always been on my mind as i do surf the web and read what power these two agencys have

so can some one fill me in

hay buckthesystem have you watched that sympson epesode were baart goes crazy and thinks some one is spying on him and then steels a tank and shots at the sky and a satalight falls from the sky ? that epesode cracked me up as bart had a tin foil out fit he decked him self up

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[Axxman]

Let me ask you...what is the other option? Do we simply not get vital info and allow thousands of people to die?

Torture doesn't produce reliable intel. People will say and do anything to make the pain stop.

Torture has several uses. Oftentimes it is the mere idea that a person may be tortured that makes it most effective.

"The aim of torture is to dehumanize the victim, break his/her will, and at the same time, set horrific examples for those who come in contact with the victim. In this way, torture can break or damage the will and coherence of entire communities." -- US NGO Physicians for Human Rights

In an affidavit filed with an ACLU court challenge to Section 215 of the Patriot Act, Nazih Hassan, president of the Muslim Community Association of Ann Arbor, Michigan, describes this new climate. Membership and attendance are down, donations are way down, board members have resigned--Hassan says his members fear doing anything that could get their names on lists. One member testified anonymously that he has "stopped speaking out on political and social issues" because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself.

Furthermore...if people will say anything to make the pain stop...what will prompt them to say anything at all while your.........boring them to death??? Which brings me back to my original question...what is the other option? DO we simply wait and see if they crack under the pressure of our stares...or simply lock them up and hope they get bored before the bombs go off? If torture is ineffective (I believe its effective on several fronts) then what are the other options?

[buckthesystem]

damo1

hay buckthesystem have you watched that sympson epesode were baart goes crazy and thinks some one is spying on him and then steels a tank and shots at the sky and a satalight falls from the sky ? that epesode cracked me up as bart had a tin foil out fit he decked him self up

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

Damo, remember always: "Perfect paranoia is perfect awareness!"

Yep I sure do remember the episode of the simpsons that you describe. It was really good. Of course the punchline was that Bart was right all along and there was a spy satellite, even if it was just baseball players.

Got your tin foil hat in a safe place?

[damo1]

damo1

hay buckthesystem have you watched that sympson epesode were baart goes crazy and thinks some one is spying on him and then steels a tank and shots at the sky and a satalight falls from the sky ? that epesode cracked me up as bart had a tin foil out fit he decked him self up

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

Damo, remember always: "Perfect paranoia is perfect awareness!"

Yep I sure do remember the episode of the simpsons that you describe. It was really good. Of course the punchline was that Bart was right all along and there was a spy satellite, even if it was just baseball players.

Got your tin foil hat in a safe place?

damo1

to buckthesytem

yep just about to do one for my self and so true what you have said as this is one thing on my mind who is listning to the conversations we make on the other side i remember when george bush gave the go ahead for every in comming and out going emails to be read by the goverment when i heard this on news hear in australia it got me mad and i always have this in the back of my head

in my younger days we use to have scanners were we would pick up what the police were up to and were they would be we also picked up sevral people talking to each other on their mobil phones one guy cracked me up and i nearly said something over the scanner we had but my mate put his hands on my mouth as he new what i was going to say

he was trying to pick this chick up and the poor guy was going no were i could not stop cracking up as we gof the chicks ph number as she said how did you get my mobil ph number he said from her sister

these scanners are elegal to have and you can get into a lot of trouble as we also picked up sea rescue and we would also pick up and hear were the drug busts would be in our neck of the woods very good if you have not got a licence and want to avoid being done by the police or breth tested

i should keep silent i am giving away to much information hear

god bless from your brother in the lord damien stipic

[The Lorax]

"The aim of torture is to dehumanize the victim, break his/her will, and at the same time, set horrific examples for those who come in contact with the victim. In this way, torture can break or damage the will and coherence of entire communities." -- US NGO Physicians for Human Rights

In an affidavit filed with an ACLU court challenge to Section 215 of the Patriot Act, Nazih Hassan, president of the Muslim Community Association of Ann Arbor, Michigan, describes this new climate. Membership and attendance are down, donations are way down, board members have resigned--Hassan says his members fear doing anything that could get their names on lists. One member testified anonymously that he has "stopped speaking out on political and social issues" because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself.

Now you are talking about simply striking terror into people. Yes, torture does that. It's also what terrorists do. Maybe you don't see a parallel between the measures you are advocating and the measures enacted by terrorists and fascist dictators.

Furthermore...if people will say anything to make the pain stop...what will prompt them to say anything at all while your.........boring them to death??? Which brings me back to my original question...what is the other option? DO we simply wait and see if they crack under the pressure of our stares...or simply lock them up and hope they get bored before the bombs go off? If torture is ineffective (I believe its effective on several fronts) then what are the other options?

You seem to think that there must be SOME way to extract info from unwilling people, be it through torture or other forms. Why do you assume so? I'm no expert; I don't know how well polygraph tests or sodium pentathol work. But I do know, as an American and as a Christian, torture is an abomination. It is not justifiable under any circumstances.