Oh Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree

[VRSpock]

Yes, but Christ was born in September....some say on the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles, but I lean towards Tishri the 1st, or Rosh Hashana...the Jewish New Year...the reasonning behind this is from calculating His birth based upon the information given in the gospels. We are told approximately when John the Baptist was concieved and from that, we can calculate approximately what time of year Christ was born, not to mention the whole "Sheperd's tending to their flocks in the fields" which would not have been done in winter time, but in the milder time of the year during the High Holy Days. There's also the verse that says that He will tabernacle with us.

One calculation in particular, which basis their analysis on an immense number of variables even has it pinned down to September 11, 3 BC which is kind of interesting in and of itself, at least to me.

From what I understand, observing one's birthday was not part of Jewish culture.

The pagan sun god was known by the Persians as Mithras, the Egyptians as Ra and by the Romans as Sol...all three incarnations of the same pagan god were much older concepts than Christ....at least to a world without understanding of scripture.

Sol's birthday was observed culturaly prior to it becoming an official "holy day" recognized by the Roman Empire as that religion was sanctioned as legal by Rome nearly 100 years prior to Rome legalizing Christianity. Rome dictated what was and what wasn't a "holy day" according to Roman law and when Rome legalized what it considered to be Christianity, the Roman emporer automatically became the legal high priest of that legal religion, as he did with all legalized religions. So the Roman emporer, not G-d designated it a "holy day". It was designated as a "Christian" holiday because Constatine, the Roman Emporer at the time, declared Christianity the only legal religion, began dictating how people would worship as "Christians" and proceeded to kill off any Jew, Christian or Pagan who refused to observe the only legally sanctioned style of worship for the only legalized religious identity of "Christian". This was crowd control because Rome's biggest concern was managing the masses of people within their Empire who were of various cultural and religious backgrounds, a lot like where we are at today in the world with the one world religion that is emerging.

In Americanized cultures, we have watered down the concept of what a Holy-Day is as we have little true understanding of what it means to be Holy. Jews have the highest understanding of Holiness, because G-d took them and spent thousands of years teaching them what Holiness was and instilled the idea of Holiness into their very culture. Holiness is hardly a part of American culture. One simply would not have began declaring specific days as holy unless they were cited as such in scripture.

With that said, Christmas has both a light and a dark side. However, the dark side of Christmas and those dark influences seem to manage to wiggle their way into our lives even when we don't want them to. I wouldn't mind all of the comotion towards collectively pushing the concept of Christ onto the world at large during the Christmas season if it would happen more than just once a year and if people wouldn't also get caught up in a lot of unnecessary things along the way.

I decided to re-study the whole issue of Christmas. You see, I see it as a pagan holiday and would like nothing more than to do away with it in my personal life.

Not to derail your thread, but this statement struck me.

Actually, vrsprock, it is not a pagan holiday. People were celebrating Christ's birth several centurarys before the Pagans tried to reclaim the day as their own. As early as 98 A.D. December 25th was not recognized as the celebration of the Pagan Sun God untill 274 A.D. And that was an attempt to undo the effect of Christ on culture. Isn't that what Christianity is supposed to do. Be salt and light to the culture changing it?

My pastor just did a lesson on this Sunday, in reference to whether or not it is correct, according to the Regulative Principal, to celebrate Christ's birth.

The date, not the celebration is pagan. If you read the account of Christ's birth, there was plenty of celebrating going on, by the Angels, the shepherds and the wise men. There is no reason we should not celebrate the coming of our Saviour.

While we are given no command to celebrate Christ's birth, we are given no command to the contrary either. There are 42 prophesies reguarding Christ. His birth was the corination of those. Without his birth there would have been no life, there would have been no ministry, there would have been no death or resurrection, there would be no second coming. What better reason to celebrate!

Back to your topic. I see no reason not to have a tree, it could mean life to Christians. The tree brought us life. As long as one does not "worship" it there is nothing wrong with it.

[VRSpock]

I never said that though. If I say that and you listen to me, then we have just started a new cult. That is listening to man and not the Torah or G-d's Teachings aka the Canon Bible. Don't listen to me or anyone else for that matter....but dig into the scriptures and keep seeking the Truth...if we all do that, we will eventually all be in agreement with one another...of like mindedness.

What I am saying is that a number of Christians are so anti Christmas and Easter to point that we are supposed to not participate in anything as it would be involving Pagan holidays. These people might condsider becoming a Jew as they can then participate in true God given feasts and festivals and can ignore Christmas with a clear mind as there is no obligation to observe Christmas.

[Guest Biblicist]

Jews have the highest understanding of Holiness, because G-d took them and spent thousands of years teaching them what Holiness was and instilled the idea of Holiness into their very culture. Holiness is hardly a part of American culture. One simply would not have began declaring specific days as holy unless they were cited as such in scripture.

I can't believe you said that.

[VRSpock]

I don't really care for Christmas...the problem is I live in a culture that does...and the vast majority of it doesn't even attempt to make it about Christ but about a mysterious guy in a red suit who lives for all of eternity, is omnipotent as he can travel to every home in the world in a day and has magical powers to fly around with a bag of good stuff for those who have done good works.

I don't attempt to judge anyone though because the moment I begin judging someone for observing Christmas and possibly violating the law, then I will be judged for all of the laws that I have broken....the same is true of us all and I guarantee you that I can find at least one law that everyone has broken at least once in their lifespan. Note that judging someone and inspecting their fruit are two different things.

The whole point of the law is to show us that it is impossible for us to please G-d, for it is not by our works but by grace that we are saved. After being saved, it should then be our desire to honor G-d to the best of our ability within the law, but we are made complete through Christ if we remain Spiritually minded....so it's all good in the hood.

Even if they are talking about shaping an idol out of wood, the holiday and it's trappings are still pagan and heathen and the bible warns against adopting those ways.

But, we like it, it's fun, I just prefer not to try an assign a "religious context" to it which, in my mind, isn't an honest thing to do.

[VRSpock]

Oooh...I hadn't though about it like that...but you're right...He was concieved during the Feast of Lights which is another name for Chanuka...if I remember right. I've done a lot of studying on the timing of Christ's life and its absolutely amazing how anyone who observes the Appointed Times could without recognizing Christ as the Messiah. Not to mention all of the prophecies that were fullfilled.

No, He most likely was born during the Feast of Tabernacles, in the Fall. However, according to the Scriptural timeline, He was CONCEIVED during the Feast of Dedication (in the Winter), so we are celebrating the INCARNATION of G-d the Son, the Messiah as a human. That is a reason to rejoice!!

The Angels rejoiced at His birth, and so should we! Whenever we celebrate it.

[VRSpock]

Who said they were Christian? Man or G-d?

You can celebrate it anyway you want to these days but to try and claim it as an original christian holiday just isn't true; the roots are totally pagan. But, not to fret, once Christians got control they murdered a whole lot more pagans and other christians than was done to them. Doesn't that just give us all the "warm fuzzies".

[VRSpock]

Yep...the names of the months as well are pagan...go figure...it's a Roman Calendar....which replaced the original calendar in scripture which was much more simpler because you could just look up at night to see what time of the month it was instead of having to invent something to keep track of it. But man loves to do things the hard way...lol

It's kind of humerous if you really think about it.

If you really want to remove pagan traditions from your life...You must remove the days of the week as well.

LINK

Sunday

The name comes from the Latin dies solis, meaning "sun's day": the name of a pagan Roman holiday.

Monday

The name comes from the Anglo-Saxon monandaeg, "the moon's day". This second day was sacred to the goddess of the moon.

Tuesday

This day was named after the Norse god Tyr. The Romans named this day after their war-god Mars: dies Martis.

Wednesday

The day named to honor Wodan (Odin).

The Romans called it dies Mercurii, after their god Mercury.

Thursday

The day named after the Norse god Thor. In the Norse languages this day is called Torsdag.

The Romans named this day dies Jovis ("Jove's Day"), after Jove or Jupiter, their most important god.

Friday

The day in honor of the Norse goddess Frigg.

In Old High German this day was called frigedag.

To the Romans this day was sacred to the goddess Venus, and was known as dies veneris.

Saturday

This day was called dies Saturni, "Saturn's Day", by the ancient Romans in honor of Saturn. In Anglo-Saxon: sater daeg.

Yet, the word of God tells us, "This is the day that the LORD has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it". It's not what we call it, or what the world calls it, it's what we do with it that counts. Everything should be about God.

[VRSpock]

Then you will be equally shocked that probably the second highest group of people who have a grasp of Holiness would be Roman Catholics. I know this because several people I know who used to be Catholic have expressed their initial dismay and discomfort when entering into a church body where reverence for G-d's Holiness is a lot more relaxed.

Jews have the highest understanding of Holiness, because G-d took them and spent thousands of years teaching them what Holiness was and instilled the idea of Holiness into their very culture. Holiness is hardly a part of American culture. One simply would not have began declaring specific days as holy unless they were cited as such in scripture.

I can't believe you said that.

[artsylady]

Hi Vrspock. Long time no see.

Where is this verse about trees and gold and silver found? I can't seem to find it.

[Guest Biblicist]

Then you will be equally shocked that probably the second highest group of people who have a grasp of Holiness would be Roman Catholics. I know this because several people I know who used to be Catholic have expressed their initial dismay and discomfort when entering into a church body where reverence for G-d's Holiness is a lot more relaxed.

Jews have the highest understanding of Holiness, because G-d took them and spent thousands of years teaching them what Holiness was and instilled the idea of Holiness into their very culture. Holiness is hardly a part of American culture. One simply would not have began declaring specific days as holy unless they were cited as such in scripture.

I can't believe you said that.

I'm hoping you and I are talking about a different kind of Holy.

15 just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16) It had nothing to do with traditions or celebrations, or works. We are holy because we have the Holy Spirit. We can only understand it because He gives us understanding. Holiness is not something that one can display in a church. It flows from their life.