Calvin vs. Arminius

[Ovedya]

Therefore Arminius' view should not be completely disregarded, correct?

[st. Worm]

See my edited post! You were too quick for me. As for Arminius even a blind squrrel find a nut sometimes!

[Ovedya]

I agree with your edited post.

The main flaw in Arminian theology does appear to me to be related directly to the first point. It's the first point that provides the foundation for the others. So if the foundation is flawed, than the structure cannot stand.

To me it seems an issue of whether God is able to preserve free-will, or whether free-will was created by God to be somehow stronger than the power of sin. During the fall either man was entirely corrupted, or he was not entirely corrupted. Either the corruption influenced or clouded man's ability to choose good over evil, right over wrong, God over Satan, or free-will was somehow preserved by its own strength or by God's intervention.

It seems to me that there would be a couple of problems involved with the idea that man's free-will was preserved from the fall. First, if through divine intervention, than can it be rightly said that free-will is truly "free"? If God preserved man's free-will from the fall, why would he have not likewise preserved man's flesh, or man's soul from the fall?

Secondly, if free-will was preserved from the fall by virtue of it's own strength, than surely it would have been strong enough to have overcome Satan's temptation. At the very least there would have been some indication of resistance to Satan's temptation.

How could free-will be that only divinely granted virtue that was preserved from a fall so absolute that even all of created fell in the wake of Adam's transgression? If man's fellowship with God, his purity before God, and his authority over all of creation were usurped by his transgression; and if sin came in to be the ruling part of man, then how can we say that free-will was preserved through the fall?

[st. Worm]

Although there are numerous passages Old and New T that discuss man's depravity and bondage to sin, I think Paul early on in Romans makes it clear that natural man is unable to connect with God even though God has made Himself known to us. It is only the power of the gospel that can open the eyes of the spiritually dead. Free will after the fall is a myth.

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

Great topic !! Thank you.

I won't pick a human name for my beliefs, since I know it is of God in Christ that I have salvation, and not to name myself after anyone but Christ a Christian. (ie after any man in any way)

I believe God has forordained some induviduals; as we see in the Bible how with some of them; their lives were used to phrophecy the coming Messiah, Jesus, and to do Gods will on earth in many ways. It would certainly seem Abraham and David were preordained and many more even now. I believe if one is truely saved, God will not let him go very far from Him and He will draw back His children from wayward ways.

But, it is because of Christ that alltogether we all have the gift of eternal life who do come to Him in believing faith whether we are chosen aforehand or not. Because of what HE has done and not of ourselves in what we have done.

I believe that babies go to heaven because of what Jesus has done and I thank HIm.

I believe some are chosen - but , all are called, that would mean that although some are chosen, it does not mean that the others are not called to the same salvation if they accept Jesus.

This topic is close to the question, can one lose their salvation, when asking how one can chose their salvation,(but GOD is faithful).... but the most important this is to know it is from God. HE is always Soveriegn !

But, also, God says choose ye this day whom ye will serve, everday we need to keep this focus in many ways also.

Being Christmas now and as I celebrate The Saviour of the World, I have to say, He did what He said and died that all may have the chance to come to Him, even if some are preordained. BEcause HE is Saviour of the world!

blessings to all in Jesus our Lord and saviour,

elkie

[HUBIE]

Although there are numerous passages Old and New T that discuss man's depravity and bondage to sin, I think Paul early on in Romans makes it clear that natural man is unable to connect with God even though God has made Himself known to us. It is only the power of the gospel that can open the eyes of the spiritually dead. Free will after the fall is a myth.

If, as you postulate, free will after the fall is not possible. Then by default you have to have decided that God knowingly creates many for eternal damnation and they have "no" choice in the matter, and "no" hope for salvation. Either that, or you have to believe that "all" men will be saved. From what my study of scripture shows me, God isn't going to create humans for the sole purpose of eternal damnation. Ick! Just the thought of it is hideous!

It's quite possible I don't understand the Calvinistic theology. I don't fully comprehend some of the Arminian positon either....

I've never "settled" this matter, and maybe it is high time that I did.... I've been sitting on the fence so long I'm starting to get piles. I'll continue to re-read what is here, but I'm not sure I have the mental capacity to make the committement to either position!

[Ovedya]

Although there are numerous passages Old and New T that discuss man's depravity and bondage to sin, I think Paul early on in Romans makes it clear that natural man is unable to connect with God even though God has made Himself known to us. It is only the power of the gospel that can open the eyes of the spiritually dead. Free will after the fall is a myth.

If, as you postulate, free will after the fall is not possible. Then by default you have to have decided that God knowingly creates many for eternal damnation and they have "no" choice in the matter, and "no" hope for salvation. Either that, or you have to believe that "all" men will be saved. From what my study of scripture shows me, God isn't going to create humans for the sole purpose of eternal damnation. Ick! Just the thought of it is hideous!

It's quite possible I don't understand the Calvinistic theology. I don't fully comprehend some of the Arminian positon either....

I've never "settled" this matter, and maybe it is high time that I did.... I've been sitting on the fence so long I'm starting to get piles. I'll continue to re-read what is here, but I'm not sure I have the mental capacity to make the committement to either position!

You do not need to postulate that God creates many for eternal damnation by the removal of free-will. Since God is not currently in the act of "creating" people new (That is, in the womb), it is not necessary to believe that God is responsible for the inactions of man's receiving Him.

I don't believe that the fall removed free-will from man, I believe that free-will was corrupted, just as the rest of man's nature was corrupted. So man has free-will, it's just that his free-will is blocked from choosing good over evil. Man's predisposition due to the fall is to gravitate toward evil, therefore irresistable grace is needed.

[HUBIE]

Ovedya,

Thanks for the reply. I can stipulate that free will has been corrupted with the fall. I can even see how irresistable grace is maybe a factor, but, and this is where I always get hung up on the Calvinist position. If God doesn't provide his irresistable grace to ALL, then some are created for eternal damnation. I can't see how it can be both ways. Either free will can/does lead many of us to "choose" to accept the "Gift" of slavation through Christ Jesus, or there are some who are "elected" for salvation before birth. The problem I have with that is that I don't think it is biblical, or necessarily even "evident" that this is how God is. I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but it just doesn't seem that the same God who would send Jonah to Nineva could be the same God who would create a human (eternal soul) who had NO, Zero, Zip, chance at redemption. I believe that God knows the endgame, but I don't think he is predisposed to "force" us into either decision. I believe everyone has the chance at redemption, but not all will accept the sacrifice.

Are you able to see where my confusion lies? Maybe it's more of a heart matter for me..... I don't know. I'll continue to read, pray and study. Thanks again for any advice and support you can lend; I've still got much to learn.

[deadman1204]

I wouldnt call myself a calvinist, but I find any idea that promotes his absolute free will is in contradiction to God's sovereignty. God's choices on election for example cannot have been dependant upon what a human did. Otherwise SINNERS and not God ultimately decided His plan for the church, which is herasy.

[tdrehfal]

armeniesm (or however you spell it) = God chooses ALL men, and allows them the free will to accept Him.

calvanism = God chooses only the ones He wants, not only denying them the freedom to accept or deny, but unlovingly rejects all others, thereby ALSO denying them free will.

not very loving.

pending further study of romans 9, i would say this passage pertains to jacob and esau, and whom would be chosen to inherit his father's blessing and fulfill God's plan.

perhaps you could explain from a calvanistic point of view why John 3:16-17 says

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condem the world, but to save the world through him.

and does NOT say

For God so loved part of the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever God selected to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to save everyone, but to save only those He decided in advance to love.

I think this would be more of a right view, for if you believe everything calvanism says, the point of EVERYTHING

becomes nothing. God is 100% sovereign, but free will must also exist. If all of calvinism is true, then why do we

exist in this world in the first place? God could've just created everything at once, and at the same time thrown

everyone he wanted to into hell, and kept everyone he chose in heaven. Calvanistic views also boil down to:

I'll live however I want. Rape, murder steal, and if God wants me to be saved I will be at some point. Since

I have nothing to do with it, I won't worry about it. Im going where im going.

I won't preach the Gospel, because our preaching of the Gospel has nothing to do with anything. God will save

those whom he will save.

I won't pray. God is in control at all times and my prayers mean nothing because he already "forced'

me to do everything in eternity past when he planned it.

I won't repent of or confess sins because again its God in control of absolutely everything and I don't

have a free will. In fact, I really don't exist at all, because God is in control of everything and every

molecule in my body, I'm just part of his imagination.

I've already been forced to do everything i've ever done and therefore calvanism dictates, that by

my definition at least, I don't really even exist.