Calvin vs. Arminius

[enoob57]

one thousand, two hundred and sixty three posts..... and no resolution.

Interesting.....

and over 400 years

And it will go on till Jesus returns. There is only one Gospel. And the scripture says that I am to earnestly contend for The Faith once delivered to the Saints.

By the way all you have done is try to come up with "what if's" as argument against what I have posted. You have not positively defended any possition from the Armenian side.

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive)

A = Arbitrary Selection

I = Inequitable Limitation

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner)

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty.

None of which can be positively supported. If you do not understand the term positively supported you won't be able to answer. I can and have positively supported all the points in TULIP.

you are very right about it being one gospel, and the Bible says that if any other comes with another Gospel let them be accused, so from the teaching of Christ til 15oo something we had a gospel that required mankind to respond to Yes Lord I believe you sent your Son or No Lord I do not believe you sent your Son, whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Son of God is borned of God, then 1500 something came and here come John calvin with his other gospel, you can not respond to the gospel for all are dead and dead men can't respond, so yes I agree with you there is only one gospel but it didn't come about with the wisdom of john calvin

Revelation 22:16-17

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

KJV

and why would you bank on earnestly contending to the faith when you don't believe scriptures when it says that God gave every man a measure of faith and you and all calvinist are not to think more highly of yourself, because you have faith, see go ahead edify the verses that support your doctrine, and rip out those that don't, but I would if I was you be very carefully in pointing fingers at cults and saying they twist the word of God to make it fit their religion.

OOOOOch that was a brick of truth... who(? this is rhetorical )gave ya the good arm ... very good post! It is why the Son's sit in obedience to understand! Election and choice paradoxical to say the least! Love, Steven

[larryt]

one thousand, two hundred and sixty three posts..... and no resolution.

Interesting.....

and over 400 years

And it will go on till Jesus returns. There is only one Gospel. And the scripture says that I am to earnestly contend for The Faith once delivered to the Saints.

By the way all you have done is try to come up with "what if's" as argument against what I have posted. You have not positively defended any possition from the Armenian side.

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive)

A = Arbitrary Selection

I = Inequitable Limitation

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner)

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty.

None of which can be positively supported. If you do not understand the term positively supported you won't be able to answer. I can and have positively supported all the points in TULIP.

you are very right about it being one gospel, and the Bible says that if any other comes with another Gospel let them be accused, so from the teaching of Christ til 15oo something we had a gospel that required mankind to respond to Yes Lord I believe you sent your Son or No Lord I do not believe you sent your Son, whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Son of God is borned of God, then 1500 something came and here come John calvin with his other gospel, you can not respond to the gospel for all are dead and dead men can't respond, so yes I agree with you there is only one gospel but it didn't come about with the wisdom of john calvin

Revelation 22:16-17

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

KJV

and why would you bank on earnestly contending to the faith when you don't believe scriptures when it says that God gave every man a measure of faith and you and all calvinist are not to think more highly of yourself, because you have faith, see go ahead edify the verses that support your doctrine, and rip out those that don't, but I would if I was you be very carefully in pointing fingers at cults and saying they twist the word of God to make it fit their religion.

Again you only attack my possition by offering up why you think my side does not hold up. You offer no POSSITIVE support for the DAISY arguement.

As to your quote of:

Revelation 22:16-17

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This says nothing of free will if that is what you are trying to convey. Those that hear and are athirst will come because they have been given ears to hear and a heart to thirst and a will to come after God. The evidence that they hear and thirst indicate they are the elect.

Ps 110:3 Thy people [shall be] willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Mr 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Re 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Try one at a time.

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive)

I believe man is totally spiritually dead. In no way alive spiritually. I would really like you to show how man is dead and yet alive apart from Christ. Or blind and is yet able to see on his own or is deaf and yet able to hear on his own, or lame and yet able to walk on his own.

Prove that this is true from the sciptures or admit that TOTAL DEPRAVITY is true.

one thousand, two hundred and sixty three posts..... and no resolution.

Interesting.....

and over 400 years

And it will go on till Jesus returns. There is only one Gospel. And the scripture says that I am to earnestly contend for The Faith once delivered to the Saints.

By the way all you have done is try to come up with "what if's" as argument against what I have posted. You have not positively defended any possition from the Armenian side.

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive)

A = Arbitrary Selection

I = Inequitable Limitation

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner)

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty.

None of which can be positively supported. If you do not understand the term positively supported you won't be able to answer. I can and have positively supported all the points in TULIP.

you are very right about it being one gospel, and the Bible says that if any other comes with another Gospel let them be accused, so from the teaching of Christ til 15oo something we had a gospel that required mankind to respond to Yes Lord I believe you sent your Son or No Lord I do not believe you sent your Son, whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Son of God is borned of God, then 1500 something came and here come John calvin with his other gospel, you can not respond to the gospel for all are dead and dead men can't respond, so yes I agree with you there is only one gospel but it didn't come about with the wisdom of john calvin

Revelation 22:16-17

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

KJV

and why would you bank on earnestly contending to the faith when you don't believe scriptures when it says that God gave every man a measure of faith and you and all calvinist are not to think more highly of yourself, because you have faith, see go ahead edify the verses that support your doctrine, and rip out those that don't, but I would if I was you be very carefully in pointing fingers at cults and saying they twist the word of God to make it fit their religion.

OOOOOch that was a brick of truth... who(? this is rhetorical )gave ya the good arm ... very good post! It is why the Son's sit in obedience to understand! Election and choice paradoxical to say the least! Love, Steven

Yes this is a paradox but I addressed it I think a couple of pages back. If Christ gets ALL the Glory and Honor and man gets none, where does man get the ability to choose? Isn't even faith a gift from God?

[enoob57]

Yes this is a paradox but I addressed it I think a couple of pages back. If Christ gets ALL the Glory and Honor and man gets none, where does man get the ability to choose? Isn't even faith a gift from God?

Because in the very real sense God being Whom He 'IS' when He places something somewhere no other has right to move it or give it different reference!

If God has in His sovereignty given choice an eternal outcome by which I am held to accountability then it shall be my accountability for eternity and the election His!

To go beyond this 'IS' in my opinion disobedience upon God's command to wait upon Him 'As no man has resolved the Scripture with out redefining Words within the

makeup of Scripture ... Love, Steven

[larryt]

Yes this is a paradox but I addressed it I think a couple of pages back. If Christ gets ALL the Glory and Honor and man gets none, where does man get the ability to choose? Isn't even faith a gift from God?

Because in the very real sense God being Whom He 'IS' when He places something somewhere no other has right to move it or give it different reference!

If God has in His sovereignty given choice an eternal outcome by which I am held to accountability then it shall be my accountability for eternity and the election His!

To go beyond this 'IS' in my opinion disobedience upon God's command to wait upon Him 'As no man has resolved the Scripture with out redefining Words within the

makeup of Scripture ... Love, Steven

You make a very eloquent argument. Please provide some scriptural basis for your statements and how they apply without which I have no referrence to how you come to the conclusions you come to. IMHO the matter is resolved and all the sheep understand and the goats don't. I take no pride in this statement. All the sheep will come to know what they need to know about salvation and the goats will never be known unto God. And Jesus will not loose any of His sheep. That is what I am counting on. I love because He FIRST Loved me. I chose because He FIRST Chose me. I know Him because He FIRST Knew me. I believe becasue He FIRST Gave me faith. He did everything FIRST.

[enoob57]

Yes this is a paradox but I addressed it I think a couple of pages back. If Christ gets ALL the Glory and Honor and man gets none, where does man get the ability to choose? Isn't even faith a gift from God?

Because in the very real sense God being Whom He 'IS' when He places something somewhere no other has right to move it or give it different reference!

If God has in His sovereignty given choice an eternal outcome by which I am held to accountability then it shall be my accountability for eternity and the election His!

To go beyond this 'IS' in my opinion disobedience upon God's command to wait upon Him 'As no man has resolved the Scripture with out redefining Words within the

makeup of Scripture ... Love, Steven

This will take a little time to organize... the basic begin 'IS' the Sovereingty of God is of the nth degree in that all things are determined... will be back with what you have asked

of me! Love, Steven

[larryt]

Yes this is a paradox but I addressed it I think a couple of pages back. If Christ gets ALL the Glory and Honor and man gets none, where does man get the ability to choose? Isn't even faith a gift from God?

Because in the very real sense God being Whom He 'IS' when He places something somewhere no other has right to move it or give it different reference!

If God has in His sovereignty given choice an eternal outcome by which I am held to accountability then it shall be my accountability for eternity and the election His!

To go beyond this 'IS' in my opinion disobedience upon God's command to wait upon Him 'As no man has resolved the Scripture with out redefining Words within the

makeup of Scripture ... Love, Steven

This will take a little time to organize... the basic begin 'IS' the Sovereingty of God is of the nth degree in that all things are determined... will be back with what you have asked

of me! Love, Steven

No problem, and this is really not about Calvinism vs Arminianism. It is about who is Jesus Christ. If I preach and lift Him up then all will be drawn unto Him. Many have preached Calvinism and have preached an empty gospel.

Love, LT

[Guest]

.... Did God make you a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath? (vs 19)

Mercy

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: John 3:36(a)

Wrath

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36(b-c)

[Guest]

.... Did God make you a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath? (vs 19)

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Romans 9:19

Mercy

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: John 3:36(a)

Wrath

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36(b-c)

[enoob57]

Yes this is a paradox but I addressed it I think a couple of pages back. If Christ gets ALL the Glory and Honor and man gets none, where does man get the ability to choose? Isn't even faith a gift from God?

Because in the very real sense God being Whom He 'IS' when He places something somewhere no other has right to move it or give it different reference!

If God has in His sovereignty given choice an eternal outcome by which I am held to accountability then it shall be my accountability for eternity and the election His!

To go beyond this 'IS' in my opinion disobedience upon God's command to wait upon Him 'As no man has resolved the Scripture with out redefining Words within the

makeup of Scripture ... Love, Steven

This will take a little time to organize... the basic begin 'IS' the Sovereingty of God is of the nth degree in that all things are determined... will be back with what you have asked

of me! Love, Steven

Election The Sovereignty of God:

Verses that suggest- Gen 18:14, Ex 4:11, Eccl 7:13-14, Jer 32:27, Lam 3:37-38, Amos 3:6, Rom 9:19

Verses that state - Ex 4:11, Deut 32:39, 2 Chr 20:6, Ps 103:19, Ps 115:3, Ps 135:6, Isa 45:5-7, Isa 46:10,

Dan 4:35, Luke 1:37, Acts 4:27-28, Acts 17:26, Rev 17:17

Verses allowances - Gen 6:6, Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:11, 2 Sam 24:16, Jonah 3:10

Clearly God displays choice in the dealings with man! A free and

determined choice and we are in His image!

Choice/Free will of Image

The Sovereignty of God in the beginning was not threatened to give His image choice…

Because outside of that choice was His Sovereignty issued…

Ge 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you

shall surely die."

NKJV

After Fall:

Verses that suggest: Deut 30:19, Josh 24:15, John 3:16, John 5:40, Acts 2:21, Acts 3:19, Acts 16:31

Rev 22:17

Verses that state: we have choice/Free will none.

Verses that suggest we don’t: Ex 10:1-2, Ex 12:36, Ex 14:17, Deut 2:30, Deut 29:4, Josh 24:19,

2 Chr 25:20, Ps 105:25, Isa 44:28, Isa 63:17

Verses that state we don’t: Prov 21:1-2, Isa 6:10, Ezek 36:26-27, Mark 4:11-12, John 6:44,

John 6:65, John 8:43, John 10:26, John 12:39-40, Rom 6:17, Rom 8:7-8, Rom 9:18, Rom 11:8,

Rev 17:17

Now in resolving thus far I see the original image dead in sin and unable to respond to God in His Holy Place

yet the grace to receive by either Creative Word or Written Word the believe of Him… yet this belief unlike that

of angels is made able by His Grace/Love to respond in repentance. Repentance for the absolute of all that we

are as worthless to the eternities and God… We are in the miracle of newness of life ‘Born again unto a living

Hope’. No longer am I a self-serving being but I am in fact turned outward to God Who ‘IS’ my everything still in a

self-serving flesh that I am at war with! Depending on the victory of that war I will serve you also… If I am serving

you God will draw out that which pleases Him to keep for eternity as His Glory and His Witness to The greatness

of His Son in the Work that He has done…

Ever notice in the Newness of Life that working and doing even in the neglect of oneself is not considered anything...

This is His Spirit bearing witness to us we have That Which 'IS' God within us as we hold the Joy of the reward as

though we have already received it! That excites me In Him...

Love, Steven

[larryt]

Yes this is a paradox but I addressed it I think a couple of pages back. If Christ gets ALL the Glory and Honor and man gets none, where does man get the ability to choose? Isn't even faith a gift from God?

Because in the very real sense God being Whom He 'IS' when He places something somewhere no other has right to move it or give it different reference!

If God has in His sovereignty given choice an eternal outcome by which I am held to accountability then it shall be my accountability for eternity and the election His!

To go beyond this 'IS' in my opinion disobedience upon God's command to wait upon Him 'As no man has resolved the Scripture with out redefining Words within the

makeup of Scripture ... Love, Steven

This will take a little time to organize... the basic begin 'IS' the Sovereingty of God is of the nth degree in that all things are determined... will be back with what you have asked

of me! Love, Steven

Election The Sovereignty of God:

Verses that suggest- Gen 18:14, Ex 4:11, Eccl 7:13-14, Jer 32:27, Lam 3:37-38, Amos 3:6, Rom 9:19

Verses that state - Ex 4:11, Deut 32:39, 2 Chr 20:6, Ps 103:19, Ps 115:3, Ps 135:6, Isa 45:5-7, Isa 46:10,

Dan 4:35, Luke 1:37, Acts 4:27-28, Acts 17:26, Rev 17:17

Verses allowances - Gen 6:6, Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:11, 2 Sam 24:16, Jonah 3:10

Clearly God displays choice in the dealings with man! A free and

determined choice and we are in His image!

Choice/Free will of Image

The Sovereignty of God in the beginning was not threatened to give His image choice…

Because outside of that choice was His Sovereignty issued…

Ge 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying,

"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you

shall surely die."

NKJV

After Fall:

Verses that suggest: Deut 30:19, Josh 24:15, John 3:16, John 5:40, Acts 2:21, Acts 3:19, Acts 16:31

Rev 22:17

Verses that state: we have choice/Free will none.

Verses that suggest we don’t: Ex 10:1-2, Ex 12:36, Ex 14:17, Deut 2:30, Deut 29:4, Josh 24:19,

2 Chr 25:20, Ps 105:25, Isa 44:28, Isa 63:17

Verses that state we don’t: Prov 21:1-2, Isa 6:10, Ezek 36:26-27, Mark 4:11-12, John 6:44,

John 6:65, John 8:43, John 10:26, John 12:39-40, Rom 6:17, Rom 8:7-8, Rom 9:18, Rom 11:8,

Rev 17:17

Now in resolving thus far I see the original image dead in sin and unable to respond to God in His Holy Place

yet the grace to receive by either Creative Word or Written Word the believe of Him… yet this belief unlike that

of angels is made able by His Grace/Love to respond in repentance. Repentance for the absolute of all that we

are as worthless to the eternities and God… We are in the miracle of newness of life ‘Born again unto a living

Hope’. No longer am I a self-serving being but I am in fact turned outward to God Who ‘IS’ my everything still in a

self-serving flesh that I am at war with! Depending on the victory of that war I will serve you also… If I am serving

you God will draw out that which pleases Him to keep for eternity as His Glory and His Witness to The greatness

of His Son in the Work that He has done…

Ever notice in the Newness of Life that working and doing even in the neglect of oneself is not considered anything...

This is His Spirit bearing witness to us we have That Which 'IS' God within us as we hold the Joy of the reward as

though we have already received it! That excites me In Him...

Love, Steven

I was going back to see how we got here to this point and my point was that man is spiritually depraved. hisdisciple is focused on man has to be able to choose.(post 1268)

you are very right about it being one gospel, and the Bible says that if any other comes with another Gospel let them be accused, so from the teaching of Christ til 15oo something we had a gospel that required mankind to respond to Yes Lord I believe you sent your Son or No Lord I do not believe you sent your Son, whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Son of God is borned of God, then 1500 something came and here come John calvin with his other gospel, you can not respond to the gospel for all are dead and dead men can't respond, so yes I agree with you there is only one gospel but it didn't come about with the wisdom of john calvin

Revelation 22:16-17

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

KJV

I do not deny that man has the ability to choose and is responsible. He can choose and therefore is responsible. The problem is that his choice is subject to his fallen nature and will not choose God unless God does something in him first.

He must be born again before he can see the kingdom.

He must be given life to live.

He must be given sight to see.

God choosed whom He will to be a vessel of honor and whom He wills He hardens. They are already hard, He just makes them harder.

God chose Jacob to love and hated Esau. This is the sovereignty of God.