Calvin vs. Arminius

[st. Worm]

horizoneast quote and query:

It appears to me that your explanation (as usual) is much too simplistic for such a complex subject

[st. Worm]

horizoneast quote:

"It has been my experience that many Calvinists do not like the term

[st. Worm]

horizoneast quote:

"The new birth took place at the very moment they choose (of their own free wills) to obey to the gospel message"

SW:

Spiritually dead men (which we all are in our natural state) do not have a morally neutral free will. Any repentance and belief could never take place prior to the regeneration of our soul by the Holy Spirit.

"No one can come to me unless it has been granted by the Father" says our Savior.

You have never answered my question why it troubles you so much that God makes the choice of who He saves. This is the third time I have asked.

[st. Worm]

horizoneast quote:

Worm says

[st. Worm]

Sorry horizon, but not a single verse of Scripture teaches that men have free will in the sense that you seem to think. Throughout the course of this thread your "arguments" have taken it on the chin time and time again. You are like the children of Israel in the gospel accounts who scoff at Jesus. After all they are from Abraham and Moses and have no need of our Lord. They too were claiming to have free will just like you, denying the power of sin in their life and being. Free will teaching is not from the Bible but from such heretics as Pelagius. In other words, free will teaching is truly "man made doctrine". Free will teaching is ultimately salvation by good works. If you are smart or religious enough, then you make the right decision. If not you are lost. God has nothing to do with it according to you. It does not answer the question about salvation for infants or those incapable of making that right decision nor does it address the issue of the many millions who never got to make a choice, who were never confronted with the gospel. You, Pelagius, Arminius, Finney and Erasmus continue to make the same error by denying sin. You are not in good company. On the other hand, the Apostle Paul, Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, and others understood there is no free will in man.

St. Worm

[Mark777]

Let me ask a question: Does Calvinism teach that Adam had free will?

Mark

[st. Worm]

Mark, I would say Calvinists would agree that Adam had a form of free will and liberty which of course was deeply and irreparably damaged after he disobeyed God in the Garden.

[Mark777]

I do not believe in free will for us but I have always wondered about Adam. st.worm, what do you mean when you say, "... a form of free will and liberty..." ?

Mark

[st. Worm]

Mark, I qualify the term by saying a "form of free will" because even before the effects of sin, Adam was not perfect. He was created good and had a form or type of freedom of the will which, of course, was still subject to manipulation. Of course I would not strongly disagree with someone who says that Adam had an absolute free will in his choices. Its sort of a matter of semantics at that point. Of course the freedom that Adam had turned to bondage of the will after sin entered the creation.

sw

[Mark777]

Thanks st.worm,

I think that the belief in free will is wrapped up in egotism. That we are somehow more than we are - creations of God. I probably think that Adam had a free will but one of ignorance. And you are right, after the fall, man is enslaved to sin - how could it be otherwise. If man still had a free will he could fulfill the law and save himself. If one says, "there is the issue of being born a sinner." I would say, "Precisely the point." After salvation, well, we talked about that for at least 50 pages.

Mark